I'm going to write a lot more about this in the coming days but the most important takeaway from my first few days of switching my main development machine to Linux (Pop!_OS 18.04)?
I. Do. Not. Miss. The. Mac. One. Bit.
Everything Just Works (tm), including my USB-C-only LG external monitor (which doesn't even work with Laura's older MacBook Pro), Magic Trackpad, etc. And there are things I actually enjoy more about the experience. Never thought I'd be writing this about Linux. Exciting times!
Seems I'll get myself a 13" XPS too...
@aral we live in a bizzaro world. Moving from a mac to linux and the impression is 'wow, things just work'.
Wasn't that supposed to be the impression going the other way?
@inmysocks Dont' get me wrong, things just work in Appleland too, of course. But that wasn't my experience until the latest Gnome shell/18.04 in Linux world.
I haven't felt this excited about dev since I switched to Mac. I want to try and make every bit of it even better :)
I'm currently just getting set up & already started marking some todos of issues to file, etc., but mostly I want to take a little time to really get a feel for things. Also looking into GJS (how fucking amazing is that?) and into the various projects.
I have to say, Gnome shell is hugely impressive and I feel it's time those of us who understand that experience, not ideology will win this start combining our efforts behind it :)
@aral @mathieu @inmysocks Ohhhh... I finally now understand who GNOME 3, etc. is aimed at. I see it must be very inviting for Mac users... Huh, thanks! I was a refugee to #MATE and Xfce. Gnome2/MATE was a similar revelation in joy coming from WinXP. One thing I love about Linux is the cornucopia of DE’s to choose from. This could be leveraged more systematically by a selector in a canny user oriented distro installer...
GNOME is designed to be accessible to all. (not just in terms of disability, but also computer proficiency and geographical/regional specificities)
It doesn't actually appeal to everybody though, and that's fine: there are other options. Glad you found one that works for you! ☺
@mathieu PS. Just saw this: https://www.omgubuntu.co.uk/2018/06/gnome-app-menu-migration - it would be a huge step backwards if implemented. How can I get involved to try and prevent this? Where is best to make the case?
But nothing is ever a "done deal". Design is a live thing, it evolves constantly. Especially when you release every 6 months.
It could be that user testing will reveal more problems after the removal than we fixed, and the designers will decide to revert. Or to experiment something entirely different.
Come and say hi in #gnome-design. 🙂
Usability testing should be one element of design, it should never drive it as the only factor. I'd love to know how many people were involved, who they were, etc. In this case it sounds like usability testing was used as an excuse to justify a different direction someone wanted to take. I'll make my case in longform & on the forums you suggested & worst case scenario, we'll have to consider a fork as the new direction I'm seeing for this & the lock screen is regressive
Usability testing is definitely not the driving factor, it's more of a way to validate/inform past design choices.
As for all your questions, you'll find answers talking to the designers.
Do note that this has been under consideration for a while already. The designers and developers have been thinking about the problems with app menus for years. This isn't a new thing someone pushed for.
@aral I put ubuntu on my dell xps 15 and have generally liked to but ubuntu keeps having issues and I just don't have the skills to fix it.
@stefanhayden If you get a moment, do give Pop!_OS a try to see the direction things could go in. (It's based on Ubuntu 18.04). Which version of Ubuntu were you running? 18.04 is the reason I could switch. Gnome Shell makes all the difference :)
@aral honestly I'm a tiny bit disappointed (mostly surprised really) that you weren't on Linux (or other floss OS) all along? Like, were you not pushing for FLOSS usage in Diem back in the day?
Anyways, great that you're on Linux now!
@aral which model is that? I have a late '13 rMBP and I have issues with the camera and non-scaled external monitor (gnome shell freezes)
@qwazix It's a Dell XPS 13 (2018 model).
@aral ah ok you said magic trackpad and I assumed macbook. Thanks!
@qwazix No worries. It's rather cool that everything I had connected to the Mac also works here :)
@aral yeah, I find Linux more polished than MacOS mainly because most of the software I use came from the Linux world and their macOS ports are lacking. In general hw support is excellent these days except if you go extremely bleeding edge.
I'm looking forward for a GNU/Linux phone now, I dearly miss the days of maemo.
@aral I miss CoreAudio and GarageBand. How come I can pug in a USB guitar cable and use PulseAudio/ALSA to record acoustically on Audacity but Guitarix and Rakarrack still require JACK? Stupid... Even for MIDI keyboard, you can use aconnect for Yoshimi or Zynaddsubfx instead of JACK. https://soundcloud.com/theouterlinux.
@TheOuterLinux I hear you. Are any of those things that you have a technical background that would allow you to help out with? Even if it's a small contribution to one, it would help.
@aral https://gitlab.com/theouterlinux/contact-or-follow If you'll notice from the list or just digging around, I'm either suited for graphics or command-line (https://gitlab/theouterlinux/command-line). I make bash scripts instead of programming. I also hate it when people try to reinvent the wheel with "pop" languages or when developers also want to be package maintainers (snaps). So... I'm not really a lot help unless you want to commission me to draw or model you something.
@aral After using MX Linux (Debian-based) for almost a year and throwing everything at it and all it does day after day is say "Bring it bitch" back at me without a sweat, I'm never using anything else for as long as possible. It's like if Debian & Mint had an XFCE baby with custom tools & repos to make things already even easier. People have been begging Lunduke to try it, but because of Purism sponsorship, now we know why he won't. Yet, he will "challenge" Windows for 30 days.😑
@aral After almost three years on a Linux laptop, I've been back on a Mac for 18 months because that's what everybody at my current company uses.
I'd switch back in a heartbeat.
@aral I'm glad you finally switched to GNU/Linux. Not because it is "better" than MacOS (which is also quite good) but because it's a free software and that it helps spreading knowledge (whereas Apple only spreads the idea of extreme capitalism).
@h30x I would have switched to GNU Linux on ethical grounds ages ago if it satisfies the ethical design manifesto (not just its core pillar but the other two as well). I wasn't in a place where I could help with the other two given where it was. I feel I am now. That should be the reason to feel good. No one* is going to switch to Linux because of GNU principles. We win this when people switch because it is better than macOS :)
* statistically speaking
@aral I have been very impressed with Ubuntu. It's still rougher around the edges than MacOS, but it works well.
@torgo What I love is that the @gnome team are neither copying macOS nor Windows but have found their own voice. The Activities view is nigh on perfect & the HIG + consistency in their own apps is top notch. The main problem I see is how fragmented the app-space is but that doesn't matter if a current/future distribution strictly curates based on HIG-compliant apps. Pop!_OS might be a good "base" Gnome Shell distro (itself based on ElementaryOS/Ubuntu) to base such a consistent OS on. CC @todd
@aral Well, now I'm actually considering trying that out. I haven't used Linux as my main OS in ten years, but Apple products (and macOS in particular) keep getting worse...
@noemi Let me know how you get on. If you're going with the Dell and want to install Pop!_OS, I would highly recommend installing Ubuntu 18.04 first (Pop!_OS failed to even run the live environment from USB on the stock 16.04; failed after reboot). Also, you may run into issues. See the following toots for workarounds:
@aral Oh, I was thinking about installing it on my MacBook...
@aral is this the year of the Linux desktop? :D
@Antanicus Haha! Maybe this is the year we stop saying that ;)
@aral @Antanicus Careful reading of the yearly net share for computer OS’s shows a slow, steady increase in favour of Linux through the years, up to nearly 6% now, if memory serves. There may never be a Year of the Linux, but given the increasingly friendly UX, Linux will keep chugging along upwards.
The real stodgy problem is mobile deployment. There needs to be much better options for us non-1337-haxorz to root our phones or tablets to swap os’s.
@aral yup - people often assume that Linux is also limited to slow development like MacOS and Windows - if you tried it a few years ago and didn't like it... it's well past time for another try! Much of the Linux ecosystem is very refined, and simply better than proprietary.
> Never thought I'd be writing this about Linux
You seem almost embarrassed saying this.
Nevertheless, welcome aboard.
@drequivalent Quite the opposite. I'm delighted.
@aral I am curious: how would you compare Pop!_OS against elementary OS?
Yes they have some common software, and yes I've got a strong a preference. But I'm curious what you think.
@alcinnz They're both great initiatives. As far as I can see, Gnome 3 was based on first-principles design and thus is a beautiful example of a simple, usable interface that copies neither macOS nor Windows. That's its biggest draw for me, I can see the design process reflected in the artefact. It has its own culture and conceptual integrity. (That's why it's sad to see a new direction that feels like the undoing of that.)
@aral I guess I keep forgetting how easy it is to look at elementary's dock and "metallic" window theme and assume they're copying Apple.
Be careful! That's how it starts.
I switched from OS X to Pop!_OS, but that was just the beginning. Pretty soon, I'd made my way on to #arch. These days, I'm running a lot of #suckless tools, including #dwm, #dmenu, and #st—and I don't even *have* a display manager. Now, heaven help me, I'm even considering installing #gentoo or #void.
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