Right, I’ll tell you what we’re going to do. We’re going to organise a conference in Europe for people working on ethical alternatives to surveillance capitalism that isn’t sponsored by surveillance capitalism. For people who aren’t afraid to pick a side.

Because I’ve had it with this bullshit and we need non-bullshit alternatives.

Watch this space.

@aral Hi I'll be happy to participate with my non profit. for more info. Pm me if you're interested

@tursiops Neat :) Going to tall to some folks this week on logistics. Please keep an eye on my feed.

@aral you have my boosts! As I may not be able to attend

@aral (that was my "you have my sword" proclamation, if that wasn't clear).

@aral It would be cool if you do it at the heart of capital aka frankfurt 🏦 💶 Then it would be interesting to see if #faz covers the conference. 😉

@pavi We have a place in mind but continental Europe isn’t too large. Is a major hub so should be easy for folks to get to ;) More details once I have things locked down.

@aral Great to hear that. Maybe we can get FSF Europe @fsfe #fsfe to support the conference.

@pavi @fsfe We’ll see. First step is to lock down the logistics. Will make a proper announcement after I’ve had a few conversations this week.

@aral I hate to say this, but count me out.

Too much hostility.

When you can demonstrate a willingness to engage politely with people you disagree with and respect others' points of view, I'll consider it.

Your hostility may be inspiring to some, but you may as well know it's extremely off-putting to others, including folks "on your side."

My 2c, take it as you will.

(And before you write me off as another Google fan-boy, consider what I've been working on for the past decade.)

@HerraBRE I’m not surprised. And I don’t have to demonstrate a single thing to you. What makes you think you’re entitled to that?

@paul If criticism makes him feel bad, it's totally reasonable for him to block people to protect his sanity.

It doesn't inspire confidence that my concerns will ever be addressed (and addressing them matters if you intend to host events with diverse points of view), but who knows, maybe he'll come around when he's had some time. 🤷

Seeing as how this is his way of 'fighting against' something that is controlled by market forces, I would say that historically his push will ultimately be a waste of resources. Generally the only ventures that have a chance to succeed are venture that try to improve a product and offer an awesome, superior product - 1/2

@HerraBRE Generally speaking though, if the goal is to destroy something, it will ultimately fail because he is fighting against the wants and needs of a market of _people_. So in effect, he is fighting against the people (i.e. the markets) which is hard to do without guns and violence. - 2/2

@poetgrant You have a point.

I also strongly believe that "we" (Google-sceptics) should be providing people with alternatives, so the market can help keep their abuses in check.

But advocacy and raising awareness also has a role to play, the big companies depend on being able to hire talent that could easily find jobs elsewhere. Without eng staff, they die.

But polarising into us vs. them risks pushing people "on the fence" into their camp and I consider it counterproductive (and unpleasant).

Oh yes, I don't disagree at all. I think awareness projects are great, but the anger and 'passion' has a tendency to polarize everyone. I am not a fan. I am more a fan of real action without all the hatred. 😃😃

BTW, I am definitely a google skeptic.

@poetgrant @HerraBRE lmao you fucking capitalist nerds have truly the most harebrained and amateurish social theories

I don't see an argument here. Just an assumption and a baseless criticism at best.

@poetgrant @HerraBRE "NOT AN ARGUMENT!!" hahahahahhaha this is exactly why i called you a nerd

@aral, you know I much agree with you on the matter, but my first thought reading your post was: "This i GREAT! but wait.. is this going to start a #War?"

Are you trying to become a leader or are you trying to solve a problem?

The words "Too much hostility." from @HerraBRE describe quite well my perceptions of your words.

Don't forget that war are always won by the strongest group.

Since we are not the strongests, the only rational reason to start a war can be to gain power for the leaders.

@aral @HerraBRE

In general, hostility and hate hurts rational reasoning itself.

I totally support the idea of a conference about #surveillance-free IT, free from the sponsorship of #SurveillanceCapitalism!


But PLEASE don't frame it this way or you are going to hurt our cause!

Let it not be something AGAINST someone, but something FOR something.

A conference for #Privacy, for example. For #Freedom. For #Transparency...

But hate doesn't simply work.

If you hate the #devil, he win.

@HerraBRE @aral "please don't use mean words against the giant multinational corporations systematically tearing away the human right to privacy and abetting genocidal & fascist regimes!" god this is truly pathetic

@twome Nice strawman!

Outspoken individuals like yourself are exactly the kind of attendees I am not interested in sharing an event with. Thanks for helping prove my point.

Aral isn't content berating big corporations anymore. He's set his sights on FOSS community members who are, in his lofty judgement, not pure enough. And not in a friendly way.

If you hadn't noticed, you're not paying attention. Or you think it's justified, in which case we disagree.

@aral if you desire ethical alternatives, please start by removing the presence you have on github. lead by example

@aral looking forward to the announcement :) who is the target audience?

@zalandocalrissian By and for people working on ethical technology and not sponsored by or apologising for surveillance capitalists and the adtech model. Also not not for right-libertarian get rich quick cryptocurrency snake oil.

@pavi I thought we might be able to do something in May in Amsterdam but my focus is on making progress on Hypha right now so it may have to keep till next year.

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