Neoliberal Universal Basic Income (UBI):
- Give folks X amount a month
- Remove the social safety net (free healthcare, etc.) “because now there’s UBI”
Progressive Universal Basic Income (UBI):
- Pay everyone a living wage
- Also keep the social safety net
Very different things.
@aral Good point. When talking about UBI we should always make clear what kind of UBI we mean.
@aral neoliberals will never understand this bc the cruelty is the point with them. we don't get tit without them pocketing the whole-ass box the tat came from.
@aral Why people call it neoliberal instead of right wing anarchy?
@aral I am hopeful about, what comes next in Spain . But we will see, I guess. https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2020-04-05/spanish-government-aims-to-roll-out-basic-income-soon
@aral does a progressive UBI (“PUBI”) do anything to make sure your mincome doesn’t just get soaked up by landlords raising rent?
@loke @aral @garbados @emptyfortress Yeah, I don’t think it’s sufficient either - if the property is privately owned, capital will prefer to develop and maintain uncontrolled property where profit margins are higher instead, and will find loopholes in the rent control laws to maximize their profit (for instance, many of them effectively have tighter restrictions on rent for rented units than unrented units, which creates an incentive to make existing tenants move out somehow to be able to raise the rates).
Have democratically-owned property, and you might get somewhere (although I’d also warn against the tyranny of too-local democracy, as evidenced by homeowner’s associations). Ensure an oversupply of housing, and you might get somewhere.
@garbados @davidak @aral your housing costs should be anything *in excess of* some generously-set expected-usage: water, power etc. Rent... that's a trickier Q, I think rents should be locked from increasing when UBI is deployed, starting several months ahead to reduce (it won't prevent) rent gouging. UBI should be scaled to local Cost Of Living - this incorporates Rent, basic food costs, and enough discretionary funds to prevent stagnation
@garbados @aral You mean landlords responding to the inevitable inflation caused by a UBI? I suppose you could then put in price controls on rent. And after that figure out how to address the resulting housing shortages.
That's the problem with economics: when you mess with markets it leads to a "give a mouse a cookie" kind of situation.
That's not to say don't ever do it. I expect we'll end up with a UBI, and now sooner rather than later. But the consequences are predictable.
@aral The one solution (or mix of solutions) that most efficiently helps eradicate poverty gets my vote. IMHO, the focus should lie on making sure everyone has that safety net to fall back on, rather than handing every single person a check, which is, er, a _very_ inefficient way of dealing with a rather basic problem!? (I know I don't need one. Not now.)
@aral Yes, the world is Black and White.
No, offering UBI shall mean the end of the social wages, and shall not be connected to healthcare or other non-money based social services. But we live in wildly different countries and possibly one can't even imagine the other. You possibly mean different things using the same words as me...
And I'm libertarian, or liberal, and kind of center-left if you need to tag my opinion.
@aral i was waiting for such summary. Is it huge generalization?
@aral they think we are stupid ... "the growing health sector"
@aral is progressive UBI compatible with a growth economy?
if yes, our focus must be put elsewhere.
we must first stabilise local life - e.g. improve conditions that lessen the chance of needing to lean on a health system.
means local food, water and shelter first.
"local" may be assumed to be 100-1000 people MAX (less = better)
also local sovereignty. from individually over our bodies, to community over decision-making
we must stop relying on singular, large scale solutions to anything
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