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Hello, welcome to Linux, here are the apps you installed using Snap. Here are the apps you installed using Flatpak. Here are the apps you installed using apt. Here are the apps you inst- wait, where are you going… what’s wrong? WE WERE JUST GETTING TO KNOW EACH OTHER!!!

@aral Welcome to Linux, where installing apps gets reinvented every five years.

(Also Python, Ruby, and Node).

@craigmaloney @aral And with #Windows it is: Well, fuck you we just do it our own totally not-standardized way.

@craigmaloney
Welcome To Windows, where installing apps gets reinvented with each app
@aral

@aral Package management systems are actually a long-solved problem under #Linux. Why do we need so many of them?🤔

@datenteiler @aral I still live in hope that AppImages will provide us with Apple-style universal binaries for complex desktop programs.

Unfortunately, it looks like most effort is going into replacing RPM with Flatpak and APT with Snapcraft.

(Flatpak's "decentralised" argument seems a bit moot given everyone's standardizing on Flathub!)

@trechnex @datenteiler @aral but it's federated! I have a separate Flathub instance for work stuff and it works great!

@datenteiler @aral Package managers and the management of them by the distributions are part of the problem. Old software. By distributions patched software. Developer of the software have no control about it. A Developer must create binaries for a wide range of distributions.

Linus talked about it in the past [1].

Because of that we need solutions like Flatpak or better stable API/ABI over all distributions.

[1]: youtu.be/5PmHRSeA2c8 (Minute 4:45)

@aral welcome to macOS, here are the apps installed using Mac App Store. Here are the apps installed from DMGs. Here are the apps installed from PKGs (try uninstalling those!). Here are the apps installed from Homebrew. Here are the apps...

@bugaevc @aral .pkgs are the worst. They're just packages without the package manager
@bugaevc @aral might as well just ship tar.gz files and tell users to extract them over /
@quad @aral @bugaevc I mean, much better than self-extracting .EXEs
@xerz @aral @bugaevc yes

but at least software deployed like that tends to have the decency to include an uninstaller. and you know, sometimes options for where and how to install it
@vaartis @aral @bugaevc from NeXT apparently: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Installer_(macOS)#Installer_package

Like regular software packages they're basically a file structure with metadata, possibly including pre-install and post-install scripts as well.

The main difference is that they're used by a simple installer, not a package manager. So they DO have a "manager" in the form of the installer. It just doesn't keep track of what's already installed, hence good luck removing it.
@vaartis @aral @bugaevc actually my bad, apparently it does keep track of installed packages, it just has no way to interact with them: https://superuser.com/questions/36567/how-do-i-uninstall-any-apple-pkg-package-file

@bugaevc
Didn't know that apple does have such a mess.
There you shouldn't even have the problem of having to support a variety of different systems.
@aral

@aral Well, at least we didn't end up with a *single* gatekeeper there yet...

@aral oh and don't forget, oftentimes your Flatpak and Snap apps can't talk to or look like the apps you installed using the distro package manager because they're "sandboxed". who needs to upload files in Discord anyway?!

@aral I know these 700 solutions for one problem are sometimes really annoying. But keep in mind: Software ecosystems work just as natural ecosystems, diversity brings stability. I one fails you, you can use another. That's one big advantage in contrast to non-free systems!

@aral when I look for popular software on ubuntu's software-thingy, I get double results for them. The list gives me no way to discern them. I know I need to look for "snap" vs "universe" on the detail page, but that is really not what we should thrive for.

@aral "Ideally" we would only have to use something like Nix but with Flatpak-like sandboxing, but we're just a bit too far off that yet. Still, I hope people adopt Flatpak as the standard for now.

@aral The main issue with the FLOSS community is why distributions like Pop!_OS (or communication protocols like XMPP) are recommended in the first place.

Reasons to run Linux distributions: the Linux kernel

Decent Linux distributions for beginners: Ubuntu and Fedora

@aral And we should just stop pretending that GNOME is made with non-developers in mind; just look at Google Maps: the way Google Street View tells you if there are pictures somewhere looks more like a game design hint in Animal Crossing or Ni No Kuni than like a software toggle.

Sure, GNOME looks better than Windows 10, but is that an ambition? #UX

@redbookworm Bah, the Linux kernel is for wusses. I assemble my kernel from scratch every morning using titanium punched cards before my first cup of coffee.

@aral @redbookworm

amateur.

When I drink the caffee, silicon is burning in the oven, and when I finish I have my SoC with the whole kernel in the microcode.

@loweel @redbookworm Oh yeah, well you didn’t ask the most important question. How do I punch the cards? With my teeth.

@aral @redbookworm

still amateur.

real men are using their dicks for that. teeths are for pussies.

@aral

Short autobiography:

1) Cultural dichotomy-shaping segregated environments make social reproduction easier, so children of the bourgeoisie go to prestigious schools/universities

2) Some people don't have a place in these cultural groups => because of cultural isolation, they try to help where they hope to be needed (in political struggles, including FLOSS)

3) They start imitating those who've actually read the specs, to get (from a public) the same reactions as them

@aral So, to get straight to the point these people are harmful to their causes but they also die in the real world.

For me, correlating stuff has always been a matter of survival.

@aral
The most annoying about all these different formats is not that it are different formats, but the bloat! This is also a reality on both Windows and in a lesser extent Mac. Developers just want to distribute the complete circus. I saw Snaps and Flatpaks of hundreds of megabytes!

In the past I was always saying to Windows users; 'Linux packages are very small, because they share the same libraries.'. So you need much less disk-space. I'm afraid I can't use that reason anymore.

@aral Plus I don't see any problems with deb's and rpm's. Oh they are out of date? Well fix that part. Don't re-invent the wheel.

@jeroenpraat @aral Don't forget about the security issue... where the developers also have to be aware of all dependencies and their vulns... and keep it updated as the distro can't.

@shellkr So you have more trust in a random developer than a the team of a Linux distribution? @aral

@shellkr Or did you mean the opposite? I'm sorry, I'm to tired right now.

@aral

@jeroenpraat @aral Read what I wrote again... I am talking about the inbuilt security issue of bundled packages...

@timkrueger Hey Tim, thanks for the link but can’t seem to load the site.

@aral don't forget manually installed .debs which you can easily hunt with a `dpkg -S /usr/bin/some-app` :-)

@isagalaev Oh indeed, how can one forget such a thing? ;P

@aral
Still miles better than windows.

Here have a non-standard installer (that sometimes even tries to install adware).
Technically there's msi, but who bothers to use that anyway?
Oh you want updates? If you're lucky there's a built in updater. If not, you're on your own. You wanna know where the application stores it's data? Good luck finding out which AppData folder it is again. Oh yeah, and then there's also windows app store....

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