Bitcoin is adored by capitalists as it represents the essence of capitalism perhaps more purely than anything else: a handful of alpha douchebags getting unconscionably rich while destroying our planet.

@aral it's also completely uncoupled from any real world value. I feel like somehow that's also essential for the most efficient system of allocating resources that we'll ever have

@schratze I'm not supporting btc at all, but is "real world value" possible to be defined ?


@im @aral something has real world value iff a person can use it to satisfy one of their needs or desires and it is not merely representative of a different thing that satisfies that need or desire.

A sandwich has real world value because you can consume it to satisfy your hunger. 5 dollars do not have real world value because their only value is in exchanging them for, say, a sandwich

@schratze Yes, but depending on my hungriness, this very same sandwich can have a lot of value, or none.

Money is just a way to express this subjectivity.

So, in my opinion, real world value is not so easy to grasp. It depends on so many things.

And I think that we're both mixing price and value, here.


@im @aral well yeah, needs and desires change according to the conditions. If you don't eat the sandwich immediately, it may rot and eventually completely lose its value to potential human consumers. I'd argue the value depends on the needs and desires of people and its ability to fulfill them.

@im @aral okay maybe the words I chose aren't the best. Money arguably can have real world value. It's just that that value is representative instead of material and direct. So the important dichotomy imho is between immediate value and representative value.
Cryptocurrency often adds another layer of abstraction because it is usually exchanged for state-regulated currency which is then exchanged for goods and services.
It is practically a representation of a representation of a thing that has immediate value.

@schratze @aral

it’s also completely uncoupled from any real world value

Except the cost of electricity, the cost of GPUs and ASICs, and the cost to store mining rigs somewhere, right?

@Volpit Nope: to ones that utilise proof-of-X where X = using up scarce resources (like proof of work, proof of space, etc.) There are ones like Nano that don’t do that which I have no problems with.

@aral What about Proof-of-Stake (used by Cardano)? I thought that one was more eco-friendly

Tell how to solve problems in a better way when the people in power will not cooperate ; example

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