Regardless of whether Apple bows down to pressure on this, it shows you how they think. It’s their phone, not yours. Tim Apple is your daddy and as long as you live under his roof, you live under his rules. And he’s just made it clear he can enter your room whenever he likes and search your drawers. Might be time to think about moving out.

Problem is, where do you go? Do you move in with creepy uncle Google next door? No, he’s even worse.

And your banking app only works on iOS and Android…

…I’m seeing people say “just don’t use an iPhone.” It’s not that simple when everyday things like financial apps with two-factor authentication are locked into the two main platforms.

We need legislation to ensure critical services use open standards so you can use your Pinephone to buy lunch in the future.

It’s shocking how easily some folks jump to “just go live in a cave.” No, that’s not an acceptable alternative. We deserve to partake in modern life without sacrificing our human rights…


…It’s also victim blaming to tell everyday people they’re at fault for using one of the two main tech platforms instead of an (as of yet inaccessible) alternative. (I have two Pinephones and my room overflows open hardware. No, I don’t blame you for using an iPhone or an Android device. You’re the victim here.)

Blame the actual culprits: clueless legislators/policymakers who allow these monopolies to continue and fail to protect our human rights. Blame Big Tech and those who enable it…

…This isn’t about whether Apple backs down on this or not (although that’s important too in the here and now and you should sign this letter to put pressure on them.)

This is a greater struggle to protect personhood in the digital network age. Today, we extend ourselves with technology. Not owning and controlling these aspects of ourselves is a violation of our personhood.



@aral indeed, though I use the term autonomy, I often mean much the same thing.In the US, this also touches upon what the 4th amendment should actually mean. I do not become a "business record" with no expectations of protections or privacy, a kind of rightless subhuman "subject" of corporations and governments, just because my personhood happens to extend over the technology I use.

To put it blunt:
Talk is cheap. The only thing that really matters, are your actions.

If you buy another iNarc device after this, your actions show that you don't care about this *enough* to stop buying their stuff. In a capitalist society, where you spend your money is what actually counts.

Most people don't know better or have shown with their actions to not care enough for quite a while (#PrivacyParadox).

For you, I see someone making excuses for themselves to keep buying iNarcs.

@FreePietje And you’re deluded if you think that voting with your wallet will be enough to tackle this issue without constitutional/legislative change.

But sure, man, I’m the real problem here.

I've never said that voting with your wallet is enough. For Apple, the only thing that counts is exactly how you vote with your wallet.

I've also never said that you're the real problem. Because that's our current society where convenience Trumps everything and (most) people show to not actually care about privacy.
I can't and won't blame you for things wrong in society*, but I can hold you account for your own actions.

*) I'm actually grateful that you usually highlight them clearly

I've (mostly) stopped complaining about 'average Joe/Jane' not caring about privacy. They either don't care or don't have the technical knowhow to really do anything about it, so I can't blame them.

But when MEP, who can and should know better (that's also their job), vote en masse for mass surveillance, then I do post about that. And even vote in our national election.
Because that is a/the real problem.

I think you are missing an important point, when you claim people do not care about privacy enough: It is not a fair fight between the companies thst offer convenience and the people that advocate for privacy.

Apple and others have millions, if not billions of dollars to spend on political and public advertisements, making their products appear convenient and privacy concerns appear overblown.

@FreePietje @aral
On top of that, there is basically a cartel of service providers making apple and google phones more and more convenient and all alternatives worse and worse.

I think blaming the individual for that means playing apple's game.

@Mopsi @Mr_Teatime
"If you buy another iNarc device" was targeted at Aral, it was not a 'you' in the general sense.

Most people don't (even) have the knowledge about the invasions of privacy. And if they do, they (generally) don't have the (technical) knowledge to switch to something else.
That does not apply to Aral.

Generally: if ppl knowingly chose a slight convenience gain over a massive privacy loss every single time, then they don't actually care about privacy.
IME/IMO that is the case.

I understand.

Still I think Aral has a valid point, when he says that the solution should not be to cut yourself off from the internet and live in the 80ies.

That's like saying, sorry but climate change is coming anyways. Let's stop fighting and just all move to places that are least affected.

Not everybody has the mental and financial means to do that.

@FreePietje @Mr_Teatime
And I think it is actually our task as those with the necessary education and means to change something, to protect those who can't protect themselves.

It is of course your choice how to do that. You can create and promote alternatives, or you can try to gain political influence, or probably a lot of things in between.

@Mopsi @Mr_Teatime
I agree it's up to 'us' to build better alternatives.

I never said or implied that anyone should live as in the 80ies.

Aral lashing out with that shows the hypocrisy of his stance. Day in, day out he complains about how bad capitalism is. But "the world has now fundamentally changed". Why? Because another capitalist corporation shows it doesn't give a crap about privacy?
He portraits Apple as the savior and keeper of human rights.
JFC, give me a break 🙄

@Mopsi @Mr_Teatime
"That's like saying ... climate change is coming anyways. Let's stop fighting ..."

Just like you don't have to go back to the 80ies, there is a middle ground.
You can make choices that do *less* harm. And everyone can make that choice. What that amounts to will differ from person to person and that's fine.

But I do think people have agency and I disagree with portraying everyone as a *completely* helpless victim.
We can (slowly) change society, because we're part of that.

@FreePietje @Mopsi
You're arguing exclusively in terms of extremes: "Either all responsibility rests with individuals or none at all."
To me, both statements are ridiculous.

For everyone who, like you, calls anyone buying Apple products a traitor, there is seomeone saying the same about Android, about Windows, Driving cars, flying, using air conditionong, not having a zero-energy home, buying clothes at H&M or Primark ... it's impossible for any human to comply with all such demands, (...)

@FreePietje @Mopsi even though each of them is justified.

==> By all means, encourage people to do the right thing in every regard, but don't accuse them of not giving a fuck when they would rather change the technical/legal framework to automate that task for everyone. That's way more powerful than individual choices, and Aral is already about as fanatic about it as I can bear :)

Also: I've never had an Apple device and don't want one, but this finger-pointing is really getting on my nerves.

@Mr_Teatime "[...] you, call(s) anyone buying Apple products a traitor"

My use of 'you' in my initial response (to Aral) was ambiguous, so I clarified that I did *not* mean 'you' in the general sense. I don't know how I can make it any clearer.

Me: "there is a middle ground"
You: "You're arguing exclusively in terms of extremes"


Are you intentionally misinterpreting what I said?
It's pretty much the opposite of what I said and *clarified*.


sorry, I read your toots in the wrong order, and didn't bother to correct later...

That said: You were pretty absolute in "if you do X, then you don't care", withoutbregarding what other things he's doing. And your response read as if I'd claimed that individuals had zero responsobility, which I think we both agree is completely wrong.

I think it's best if everyone tries to pull their weight as well as they think they @Mopsi - 1/3

contributions, also if theybdon't take oir favourite form. If you think someone could do more, I should not attack them for the 10% they might be missing but congratulate on the 90% they're doing, and acknowledge that my strategy may not be for everyone.

I am not developing decentralized web services, btw.. I'm just bitching about debate culture on Mastodon, because I think I can contribute more that way :)

@Mopsi - 2/2

I suppose my reply to you is this: The responsibility does lie with everyone, but I think it is a bad strategy to "vote with your wallet" and trying to achieve policy changes is a better way to spend your energy.

And if someone manages to change the policy using Apple's phones. They still achieved the goal!

So yeah, finger pointing is dumb and I think I have to work on this myself too.

@Mr_Teatime @FreePietje
Hang on, if this sounds confused, it might be, because I was :D I thought this was a reply to my last toot.

no worries, I also lost track of the thread myself ... also: complete agreement on responsibility:
Individuals absolutely do have responsibility, but a few individuals boykotting something achieves almost nothing compared to regulation/recognition of fundamental rights. And nobody can boykot all the things that should not exist unless we have better alternatives that require the same or less effort from users.

*I* think 'voting with your wallet' is the only thing (a company like) Apple cares about.
And if they do sth bad like this and you subsequently still buy other products from them, you give the signal "no matter what you do, I'll still buy your products". So you're not given them an incentive to change. Quite the opposite.

Ofc you're free to disagree.

If you want laws/society to change, talk f.e. to your representative, not 'some' company.
Online petitions are useless *IMO*.


I would be *extremely* surprised if Apple management, including top-level, didn't anticipate this 'potential' backslash. It would make them completely incompetent, which I don't think they are (at all).
Yet, they decided to go ahead with it anyway.

What signal would they send [to their investors] if they'd change their (strategic) course because a couple of (thousand) people, who may not even be their customers, raised their voice ... online?


Of course you're right. And how much less are they going to care if those couple thousand people stopped buying their surveillance devices in favour of Google's surveillance devices?

If, however, the fundamental problem of the human right to privacy was adressed in a law, or if Aral's work helps to make independence from both Apple and Google easy to attain for "ordinary people" ... they would not have a choice but comply.

@Mr_Teatime @Mopsi
There's article 12 of Universal Declaration of Human Rights:

While not legally binding, most countries have ratified (large) parts of it. Certainly the last 2 decades there has been a vast erosion of our right to privacy and I haven't seen an indication of that changing any time soon. Rather the opposite.

Please stop implying that I'm recommending G👀gle over Apple. Look for #GoogleIsEvil and #GoogleIsSpyware and you should see several of my toots.

I think "voting with your wallet" is one of tje weakest measures.

If we relied on people's wallets for food safety, then food poisoning would be the #1 reason for sick leave, by a decent margin.

That's because noone can test what exactly is in all the food they buy. Which is why we have legal minimum standards and obligations to print certain information on the package. Without those, safe eating would be a full-time job.

Oh yeah that's what I meant actually. Send the petition to your representative, not to Apple.

Still, I think voting with your wallet is a lie that was sown by companies themselves. Good example is the individual carbon footprint. Idk if you heard that story, but it was promoted heavily by BP, because they know it makes their struggle much easier if they fight individuals instead of political parties or NGOs.

@Mopsi @Mr_Teatime
You both make it sound like you can do only 1 thing.
You can stop buying their products AND write to your representatives.

You appear to be less cynical then I am wrt the latter.
I thought that the EU could be persuaded to enact such laws, until #ChatControl happened:
So that illusion went out the door.

The US enacting such laws? Never. They think/act like there's competition. Besides, when was the last time US gov put restrictions on US corps?

@Mopsi @Mr_Teatime
I also think that Apple made a calculated decision:
"We may lose some customers, ie privacy activists, but we'll likely gain more customers who actually think this is a good thing" (parents buying their young kids iNarcs, bc now it's 'safe').

They'll likely indeed gain those (new) customers. And if those privacy activist also keep buying iNarcs, then there is literally no downside for Apple.
Voting with your wallet, ie no more buying iNarcs, at least brings *a* downside.

I think you are overestimating the number of sales Apple cares about and underestimating the number of calls and messages, politicians care about.

If 10k people in the US would stop buying Apple phones, Apple would not give a fuck. If 10k people called their representatives and talked to them about that issue, possibly on a regular basis, these representatives would realize that there is a concern in the population.

@FreePietje @Mr_Teatime
Hang on, over and underestimating should be the other way around.

@Mopsi @Mr_Teatime
I don't think anything will change Apple's mind/course.
They made a calculated decision as I said here:

I agree with what you said above.

But I also think it's hypocritical to be so strongly against what Apple is doing, yet still keep buying their products.
(I'm talking about people who have the (technical) capabilities to make a different choice, not 'average Joe/Jane'.)

Show newer

@FreePietje @aral keep pushing away other people this will surely help Linux

Anyone who doesn't use an Apple device, or an Android device, or another device where they haven't read the source code for the firmware, or any closed-source software from MS, Apple, Adobe, Oracle, or hardware, clothing or food whose production involves inhumane conditions, doesn't profit directly or indirectly from colonial crimes, or produce CO2 ...

... is not a human.
I'd encourage anyone to avoid these things but you can't blame individuals for society-level problems.

@aral It's amazing how Apple, of all people, haven't yet realised how you can get matching hashes for unrelated images. Adding a touch of noise to said images that doesn't affect how it looks can generate a totally different hash as well.

Wouldn't making accounts that tied children to their parents work? Adults would instead be the spy but it would mean no interference would be needed from Apple's part unless something was reported. The responsibility would be with the individual user(s) rather than an unaccountable corporation.

@aral Maybe I'm too pessimistic, but an open letter starting like "Dear Apple, …" comes with the bitter taste of a sad joke these days. 😑

Shouldn't we ask legislators to do something against that, or people not to use it?

Some part of me just rejects begging big tech to at least keep their most basic shit together. It might be better then nothing – but trying to not be affected by this unicorn shit remains my priority (and enabling others to do the same).

@mray @aral Don’t expect legislators to do something about that, it’s something they requested 😞

I'm not a "Security & Privacy Expert, Cryptographer, Researcher, Professor, Legal Expert [or] Apple Consumer" so I can't sign the letter. If I meet one I will tell them about it though.

Maybe /e/OS could be an alternative for some people. It's Lineage OS plus microG.
@snow @aral

/e/ OS could be more normie friendly, because it already uses microG and has some cloud features.

> /e/ OS could be more normie friendly

I don't think a normie would use /e/ OS or Lineage OS...
(are you promoting such kind of softwares to normies?)

It is /e/ OS still in beta? The version is 0.17 now...


I have a lineage phone already...and I will only buy a phone that can runing lineageOS... Maybe can give /e/ OS a try...

@snow @aral

If you already use Lineage OS /e/ may be not interesting for you. But if you use Android it may help you to degoogle your life.


Yes. If _I_ can't use a pinephone as a daily driver yet, how on earth are we expected to ask others to?

I'd very much like it if the folks developing for pinephone would treat it like a phone, not "here is a tiny computer! oh it has some phone parts. But you can hook a keyboard to it! Also that's how you get a pipe character, we didn't put that on the keyboard program. Which also doesn't do control or alt, so, um, yeah we don't really know what a terminal is used for but we've seen pictures! Also to take screenshots copy/paste this 150 character command."

And by "phone" I mean "shut the fuck up with your I'm not entitled to anything because I haven't contributed bullshit, that's why the iphone and android have 100% of the market and my pinephone can't answer fscking calls when someone calls me, WHICH IS A PRIMARY FUNCTION OF A FREAKING PHONE."

But I think you put it more succinctly than I do, and people who complain about your delivery ain't heard me when I'm grumpy.

@Truck Haha :) Don’t get me wrong, I’m very happy that Pinephone and other alternatives exist – regardless of their current state. At the very least it gives us escape hatches and foundations to build upon and refine.

@aral Yes, I absolutely need to spend more time with mine. Possibly fixing a bug even.

But that doesn't mean it's a viable alternative. It means it _isn't yet._ And it won't if people don't stop with the "you have no right to complain" elitist bullshit. That will just accelerate the issues as people flee to something which is actually usable, and they'll allow their rights to be taken away due to convenience, as they're already on the ONLY options.


The way I've tried to describe the role of Pine here, and those of us who are its customers, is that it is a wedge keeping the door from completely closing on us all.


@deejoe @Truck Yep. That’s how see all our work at the moment, to be fair.

@Truck @aral
I get that your toot is a rant, but it's a bit exaggerated, don't you think? Or didn't you update your #Pinephone in the past year? I've had issues with mine but not half as bad.

I use #Mobian #Phosh and my keyboard does have Ctrl, Alt, Tab, arrows, F keys and yes, even the | pipe character.

It's been my main phone for more than two months (I'm replying on it right now). I'll admit it's a struggle, and I keep the Android phone near me most of the time.

@normandc @aral

Nope, not a rant. Mobian is the WORST of the bunch. I _specifically_ am speaking of it's horrible terminal, which is not usable without an external keyboard. Try to type a pipe. Maybe they finally fixed it, but for 6 months (before I got swamped with work) it was not possible to type. I'm not going to use that crap. I moved on.

Just read the patch notes for what doesn't work. It's so far away from being a phone that it's not even funny.

You're REPLYING on it.

It's being marketed as a PHONE. A device for people to use AS A PHONE. That means things like CALLS. SMS's.

Stop treating it like a computer. Try to use it as a PHONE.

That's my point, despite my mentioning the horrible terminal program.


(and by moved on, I mean I moved away from Phosh and went to Manjaro. It's terminal has control keys that don't work as well.)

BTW, previous phone was Jolla. Sailfish is available, and that works significanly better; but has it's own set of issues. (Mainly that I can't contribute to it.) But at least it's phone first.

I DO use it as a phone. It's YOU who whined about not being able to type a freaking pipe. I don't give a fuck about the pipe character actually, haven't needed it yet on my PinePHONE!!!

FFS 🙄🙄🙄

@normandc So, you haven't needed to take a screenshot yet?

(p.s. I don't believe you. You're using it as a computer, as you said, you're using Phosh.)

Please - let's stopp kidding ourselves - you're happy with your tiny computer, and I'm not. No need to elaborate further, or try to convince me you're doing something you aren't.

I want there to be an alternative for people - not you or I - but the general public - that is not Apple or Google. Phosh is NOT IT. It's not on track to be, and that's my issue with the entire Pinephone development that I see - too much computer, not enough phone.

You might want to look at the first words I wrote:

"Yes. If _I_ can't use a pinephone as a daily driver yet, how on earth are we expected to ask others to?"

Let's leave this here: you're "happy," I'm dissapointed and will continue to push for there to be something for EVERYONE. For reasons Aral outlines in further threads here.

@aral Super well said. I totally agree that big tech and lawmakers are to blame for allowing these corporation to have the environment they now have.

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