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Nothing like running the GTK4 demo and seeing homages to Facebook and Google.

What a sour taste that leaves in my mouth.

@aral I feel like GTK has been a sad state of affairs for a while. GTK3 was a nice step up from GTK2 in terms of the styles being all CSS, but I see no reason why they should have accelerated the release cycle so much and imposed things like CSD and headerbars. It just led to the Linux desktop experience being more fragmented. And now we have one more toolkit to theme and integrate...

@aral And what you posted seems to be yet one more element of disregard for the end-user :(

@nilix @aral gtk3 changes and things like csd were required for wayland, which I feel is a true wasteland.

@tychosoft @aral Interesting point -- looks like yeah it was necessary given the limitations of Gnome-Shell at the time. I think KDE took the correct approach with doing the hard work of creating a modular extension that allows toolkits/compositors to negotiate CSD vs SSD.

@nilix @aral one consequence of csd is that there are now many apps that give virtually no visual hint whether they have focus or not. That used to be controlled thru ssd windows manager drawn titlebars. When you have multiple monitors so you have multiple apps on "front", and no strong or consistent visual ques, this really matters.

@tychosoft @aral Yeah the application itself has to signify with dimming or titlebar alterations, which is really not its responsibility. Alas.

@tychosoft @aral "Hey, what if the Window Manager outsourced some of its most valuable duties to its client applications?" "Sounds great! Let's do that!"

@nilix @aral no one really understood the true power of X. Imagine iconifying an app on one display, and bringing it back alive on another X server, or otherwise moving apps to the system your currently in front of. Instead of introducing network aware advancements in window managers, we got wayland which lives by the far more limited concepts of desktop PCs. GNOME GNU Network Object Model Environment. They dropped the N, killed the O, and silenced the G. We are left with ME :(.

@aral Without their funding there wouldn't be the interest to make something objectively worse than Qt. :P
@foreverxml @aral @thatbrickster not sure. Red Hat these days is basically the Microsoft of the Linux world. And they basically wrote GTK4. It's not even a community project anymore. Just like other proprietary code with an open source license, they don't really care about their users opinions. Unless these users have fat contracts with Red Hat.
@newt @aral @thatbrickster Just for comparison. Who wrote Qt? From what I see it's 99.5% The Qt Company. Could be wrong. But then again, Qt hates FOSS.
@foreverxml @aral @thatbrickster maybe, but two shits don't make a cake. The point is, Red Hat successfully performed EEE using your favorite DE as a tool.
@newt @aral @thatbrickster hm. still can't use kde for the life of me and I don't know why.

@aral gross. That immediately turns me off of any software project.

@aral Unfortunately, free software has been a huge enabler of surveillance capitalism. Quite depressing.

@outsider @aral When the GPL was drafted, software-as-a-service wasn’t a big thing. You connected with a terminal and actually ran the code yourself.

But any website is software-as-a-service. And for software-as-a-service GPL doesn’t open more copyleft than the BSD-license.

AGPL which fixes that problem is still far to rare.

Because if you work at a typical company, which license are you allowed to use to open-source some code? Definitely nothing that hinders their profit model.

@aral gnome still offers syncing with FB and others, right?

@Dashtop afaik, yeah. They even refused my pull request to add FastMail to account setup in Geary and that’s when I stopped trying to contribute there. No time to waste with surveillance capitalism bootlickers and apologists.

@aral @Dashtop How email apps should work today: You enter your email address & password. Only if it can't retrieve the other settings from the service (like Fastmail, there's a standard for this now) or a builtin database, then ask the user for them!

There! A cleaner, less-geeky UX that doesn't advertise email services which don't need more advertising!

Though even sticking to the current UX I don't see a valid excuse for dropping your pull request...

@aral @Dashtop In response to other responses on this thread: I quite like Wayland & clientside decorations.

Though it strikes me that GTK headerbars should be more open towards window managers which want serverside decorations... Doing so shouldn't be hard, that codepath adding the window controls is already conditional!

And I'll agree of top-of-thread: Yuck!

@aral there was a time when we believed that these corporations were somehow different. I vaguely remember those days. We're wiser now. None of them can be redeemed. They're all deserving of oblivion.

@aral 15y ago, most of computer enthousiasts around me were hyped by google. How old is GTK ? ;D

@aral This hasn't been updated in ages. I don't think.

@foreverxml This was released ~ end of last year. It’s for GTK*4*.

fake outrage 

@aral oh yeah, mr knowitall, name one (1) other website!

😇

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