Don’t crowdfund anything that isn’t free and open source challenge 2022.

@aral I crowdfund some youtubers and musicians, neither of which are opensource. I believe you should add one more criteria to your sentence and limit it to software/service only

@Mehrad @aral YouTubers and musicians could release their content under Creative Commons. Many do!

True, but
1. Majority don't 🤷‍♂️
2. Those I support don't (wasn't my criteria) 🤔
3. I'm fine with it 🤗

Creators like Veritasium (Derek Muller) spend a lot of time on their videos and for me it is totally fine if they choose not to put it as CC0. It would be great if they do, but I will not cut my support just because they don't. Software for me is a different story though, and all of them are FLOSS.


@aral is there a Freedom-centric crowdfunding platform? Or one with a Free category?

@aral nothing? really? ugh.
Okay. Is there a p2p web/app platform for me to build it on?

@travisfw Hey man, sorry, missed this. Just boosted in case anyone knows. I can’t think of one off the top of my head.

@travisfw @aral

I am keeping track of a long list of funding-related materials as candidates to add to a #delightful list.

If you find anything a ping, or comment on the issue would be splendid.

@humanetech @aral @travisfw Some of the crowdfunding platforms on that list should be scratched off (#opencollective, #liberapay, #patreon, #koFi) all abuse privacy & harm #netneutrality, among other ethical issues. See

@koherecoWatchdog @aral @travisfw

Funding is an Achilles Heel of FOSS projects, and part of Tragedy of the Commons.

Can be very principled and that list is empty.

I have to think how I'll set up that list. There will likely be some label or badge indicator to alert people on such issues, so they can make an informed decision on whether or not they'll choose such service.

Cloudflare is big problem, but this list will not boycott for that.

Somewhat related toot:

@humanetech @travisfw @aral The list should inform people. If you are going to list Cloudflare sites, they should be loudly marked & there should be a link to information about why Cloudflare is a problem, e.g.

@aral @travisfw @humanetech I notice that Paypal is not listed, which somewhat suggests that it’s an attempt to separate ethical from non-ethical. If it really intends to be a comprehensive list of all options, then PayPal should be mentioned but ideally with a link to this page:

@koherecoWatchdog @aral @travisfw

Yes, that was the reason I initially not added them. Later I added different funding-related categories and the list became more broad in scope.

You'll notice for instance that in Payment Systems is not present. This because it is becoming the next monopolistic Big Tech. Yet is on it while it is still a unicorn evil. Dunno if I'll include, but idea was that if people only opted for something different than Stripe it would be improvement.

@humanetech @travisfw @aral I think you should decide whether it’s a monolithic all inclusive list or a shortlist of just ethical options. And since ethics are so absent in this particular area, a shortlist would have to just be a lesser of evils, in which case it’s important to flag the issues.

@aral @travisfw @humanetech Anyone who would see the crowdfunding options & walk away w/an enthusiastic upbeat confident feeling could only be someone who is underinformed. It’s a grim reality and the list should make that known -- if anything to encourage people to try to tackle the problem.

@humanetech @travisfw @aral What’s interesting about #Libera in particular is the guy behind that project doesn’t even acknowledge any problem whatsoever with Cloudflare. He doesn’t even approach the elementary stage of saying “yes it’s a problem but we lack alternatives”, & so he’s not even mindful of what harms he is subjecting people to. Which means he’s not even looking to improve it.

@aral @travisfw @humanetech If the list were to spotlight or tag CF’s role in those services, the work of others comes into play. E.g. user X complains: why are you guys using CF? This list is where you can drive that.

@koherecoWatchdog @aral @travisfw

A pointer to a good secondary lookup site maintained by someone else is as far as I'll go here.

@koherecoWatchdog @aral @travisfw

For sure the list will inform the reader. That is a requirement, as the list with its entries deviates from the default 'formula' of the project, which is to focus only on #FOSS, #OpenData and #OpenScience related works, for the reason of the field being mostly void of proper candidates, yet FOSS funding is too important a subject.

@humanetech @travisfw @aral I didn’t realize the scope was limited to FOSS. But even then, CF hinders freedom 0. That is, the freedom to use the software how you want, because CF blocks a large variety of free software browsers from functioning (which would function when connecting directly to the source).

@koherecoWatchdog @aral @travisfw

There's a whole host of issues with many of the entries and not just just CF, but other proprietary Big Tech and such. I can't help that. Really wished there were better alternatives to choose from for people. These will come, and the list will track and promote them.

@koherecoWatchdog @travisfw @aral

Well, as said, my ideal would be an all-inclusive list, where some not-to-hard-to-maintain indicator would give the reader a heads-up to beware for ethical issues.

Or maybe the reverse, where most ethical entries get a 'sticker of praise', which is less maintenance.

It is indeed true that there's not too much to choose from that really shines, and I hope lists like these can promote the 'gems' a little more.

@koherecoWatchdog @travisfw @aral

The list will almost certainly not contain the elaborate information you'd like to see (as in the issue you just passed). I don't have the bandwidth to maintain that. But there could be a badge stating there are ethical issues that links through to a good site that keeps listings of these things.

@humanetech @koherecoWatchdog @aral I am grateful for the maintenance of lists, and have continuously since I first learned to publish on the web grieved the lack of an annotation layer, and TBL himself has worked tirelessly to implement such a system that would enable watchdogs such as you to mark endpoints and resources with clear warnings that could ubiquitously reach those who want to know. We all have wishes for the perfect web, so obviously we're all settling. But also, doing what we can.

@travisfw @koherecoWatchdog @aral

TBL once posted on the Solid forum that he'd like to see a Solid FAQ app. And I responded with a more general idea of how list maintenance might take place. Going from Pull (maintainer-does-all) to Push and publish/subscribe (providers submit data snippets based on templates for review, aggregation, federation and subscribers).

Think I might work someday on such an app, as it has numerous use cases.

@travisfw @aral @humanetech It also looks like services and software platforms are being mixed on that list. Some distinction would be useful. E.g. the #Liberapay flagship service subjects users to a slew of evils, but if someone self-hosts Liberapay software they can avoid the ethical problems.

@koherecoWatchdog @travisfw @aral

I was initially planning to make an elaborate list layout, giving much information. But I am maintaining too many lists to do that. So likely it will just be a list of resources and up to the reader to decide how they like each entry and what they do with the info.

@koherecoWatchdog @humanetech @aral @travisfw Have you ever used any of those services you just listed? Why won't you use them? Did you read their terms of service and in the end you decided #NopeNotForMe?

I've tried these services and I'm gonna stick to them and its not because I want to antagonize you.

I'm gonna stick to them because they allow me to donate something to someone instead of not being able to donate anything to anyone.

Though I can understand your frustration.


@kanmastodonsvenska @travisfw @aral @humanetech Those 4 services all force you to share sensitive data w/Cloudflare. Cloudflare Inc sees your username, unhashed pw, as well as payment info -- assuming CF even allows you to use the service. Some of them block Tor and/or force you to solve an hCAPTCHA, who then rewards Cloudflare with a kickback on the fruits of your CAPTCHA-solving labor.

@humanetech @aral @travisfw @kanmastodonsvenska IOW, you directly & indirectly feed a top adversary of privacy & #netneutrality -- the corporation who has done the most damage to the web. To answer your question, no I have not used those services because using any of those 4 services just once entails exposing sensitive info to Cloudflare.

@kanmastodonsvenska @travisfw @aral @humanetech Why not trust Cloudflare, you might ask. A site hosting cp was proxying via CF. When a whistleblower notified CF that cp was being distributed from CF assets, CF decided to doxx the whistleblower’s identity to the admin of the site pushing the cp, who then publicised the whistleblower’s contact details in order to facilitate brigading retaliation against the whisle blower.

@humanetech @aral @travisfw @kanmastodonsvenska When Matthew Prince (the CEO of CF) was confronted about the doxxing, his response was that the whistle blower should have used a fake name when CF asked for their real name. So in effect, you cannot trust CF with sensitive info by the CEO’s own admission.

@kanmastodonsvenska @travisfw @aral @humanetech To answer the question about reading the ToS, iirc I read the ToS and privacy policy of liberapay & maybe opencollective. One thing I look for is whether they admit to sharing your sensitive info with Cloudflare. They never admit to that despite being verifiable (if you know what to look for). When they conceal the role of CF, it’s another strike against them. It’s dishonest.

@humanetech @aral @travisfw @kanmastodonsvenska If their wholesome non-profit for-the-people narrative were honest they’d have a banner saying “warning: all your traffic is centrally shared with Cloudflare Inc because we don’t know how (or cannot afford) to properly secure our assets”. This degree of honesty would at least show that money is not their top priority & show they trust donors to make informed decisions.

@kanmastodonsvenska @travisfw @aral @humanetech Also worth noting that opencollective is not only on CF, but it also hosts a CF profile asking for donations. It’s perversely revolting that a tech giant would ask for donations for any reason (in this case it’s to finance pizza at CF seminars/events), & despicable that a project positioning itself as being for the community would facilitate CF’s request for donations.

@desikn @aral that's awesome, but it doesn't look like I could put a software project on there.

@travisfw @aral It's still in the project phase, but keep an eye on

@aral I just crowdfunded a game where only the engine¹ became FOSS afterwards — I funded for a base amount and told the creator that I would upgrade to high tier if they manage to pull off the free licensing they thought about. Last week they told me that they are FOSSing 😃

¹: I prefer fully free games, but I also like lisp games a lot … though I prefer regular patronage for FOSS. That’s sustainable and I will need someone to maintain it.

@ArneBab @aral May I ask which game this is? I'd be interested to know more about it.

@5uie1 Sure :-)

It’s Kandria, post-apocalyptic plattformer in common lisp with a sword and awesome looking pixel graphich:

@ArneBab Very cool, I have rediscovered recently. I'll look at it over the weekend. @aral

@5uie1 My game is just a quick hack that I had fun with. Kandria is much, *much* bigger. @aral

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