We’re looking to buy a place in #Ireland (because renting here is nigh on impossible these days) so I approached a mortgage broker and they just got back to me with this gem:
“Bank of Ireland will not consider your mortgage application because you run a not-for-profit.”
How bloody lovely.
Congratulations on creating a system that rewards the worst of the worst and fucks over those striving to work for the common good. I, for one, won’t be shedding a tear should it burn to the ground.
@aral look on the bright side. It looks like all systems burning to the ground is now inevitable.
@jimfl Darn thing is, it burning to the ground is not going to be fun for anyone. I’d much rather see us building bridges to better places so we can avoid that future. That’s why I’m working on what I’m working on – to try and build alternatives we can transition to peacefully. But, equally, neither will I lift a finger to stop anyone who wants to burn it to the ground. Because they’re right; it deserves to be.
@aral Yep. We can all see what humanity is potentially capable of, just beyond the outcome of the prisoners’ dilemma.
@areyouevenreal @aral my interpretation was literal burning, as in the acceleration of oxygen chemistry, with the attendant smoke.
@areyouevenreal @aral I’m saying that those who would destroy systems don’t have to work very hard at this point. The systems will be destroyed. By fire. As if by magic. Through inaction.
yeah, unfortunately the people who have the least often pay disproportionately in the chaos that ensues when burning it to the ground
except sometimes it feels like the people who have the most know that, and use it to keep everyone with empathy or a conscience in check
"Nice barely affordable housing you have there... would be a shame if rents went up"
etc.
@frankiesaxx @aral I guess I was thinking inevitable in the following sense:
@aral
Wow, that sucks.
I used to work for a bank. I had to stop working for them to get a mortgage with them (on not much of an improved salary). When I asked the mortgage advisor, he snorted and said "not on your wage!" When I asked if there were any deals for workers, he just said "none that will benefit you".
@dodothedev Wow. Several four-letter words come to mind.
@aral @dodothedev
I was just declined a loan because my non-VC bootstrap startup coop thing will not make profit in the first two years. 
@aral @dodothedev
I only found two:
1. assh
2. oles
@aral
Yes, they occurred to me at the time, too.
@dodothedev @aral reminds me of the “singing bank manager” who told interviewers he couldn’t afford a mortgage. He was highly visible in UK television ads for the bank, but that didn’t translate into a high salary.
If you were running a restaurant, and they came in and found you did not cater for their diet, they would throw a wobbly and accuse you of discrimination and probably seek legal compensation, Howeever they are doing this exact thing when banks are refusing to offer services to the rest of the normal workfoce who can't get decent loans or mortgages as they look down on you.
@aral We've got to restart the whole fucking system...This bullshit can't go on, being able to get a loan and buy a house shouldn't rejected just because one runs a not-for-profit! Burning it down isn't ideal as it would totally wreck everything. Creation from ashes is a riskier move than a gradual reset, a policy focused initiative to create equilibrium within the system. Like a series of reboots after Windows patches one's system...To do that, being politically active and getting candidates who give a damn in power is a huge requirement.
@aral What a strange country
@adiz Sure is.
@aral That's horrific, you have my sympathy.
This won't help and probably won't tell you anything you don't already know, but if you're in the mood for two hours of eloquent and entertaining rage about housing in Ireland in particular:
@octonion Thanks, I might watch that while sobbing with a bottle of wine or something :)
@aral hopefully the wine and/or essay will at least provide a little relief :)
@aral I have a friend in Ireland, her husband works for an EU company, but they are American citizens. They’ve applied for a mortgage and they’ve been told that her income cannot be considered toward their qualification because her employer is in the US with no EU offices, but her student loan payments count against them, even though they are also in the US.
@amaditalks As I was saying to someone else, we’re living in the Fuck You as a Service™ stage of capitalism.
@aral that is a magnificent description. I’m going to have to use that one on occasion.
@aral This is also my experience (but with banks in Germany) when I started my small business years ago.
Banks will only lend you money if you have so much that you don't actually need the loan.
Because that is typical for banks, Bill G. is said to have said: "banking is necessary, banks are not".
@aral
We are having same issue with rental here in Spain.
Could not be a solution at all, but maybe try to get a mortgage in a more "ethical" bank, e.g. Triodos Bank allegedly runs and support some low-profit projects
@aral if it makes you feel better, they almost rejected my pre-approved mortgage because I resigned to get a new job that was paying 20% more.
And if you are a freelancer is another nightmare. I can imagine the same logic (or lack of thereof) applies to non-profit
@aral the fact that we are just down 2 banks does not make it any easier :(
I heard Avant are decent, I almost switched to those when KBC closed.
@Sh41 Yeah, they apparently said they would at least consider our application and not reject it because we’re not-for-profit.
@aral the mortgage system in the USA is also set up to alienate buyers and create homelessness.
@aral That's one of the biggest fuck ups I've ever heard.
Absolutely insane!
@lasombra I believe the system is working exactly as designed.
@aral Right you are.
It's just a huge shame, is all.
@lasombra Indeed.
@aral wtf, this is f...... nuts. Hopefully there are better Banks... 
@globcoco Thanks, Coralie. I guess we’ll see. Haven’t really gotten a break yet but one can hope :)
@aral hi Aral 
Are there Banks like triodos who are "supposed" to be less... Bank and more helpful? (I think I am living in lalaland but one can hope 
)
@globcoco I’ll have a look around. A few folks have suggested building societies.
@aral yes... I think that's what most capitalists do... they own nothing in their name. The system is made up to favour this way.
But maybe that's the best way to do it... within the frame of today. 
@globcoco @aral It's at least partially an overreaction to the real estate boom and bust. Things used to be way too "here, have money", and they've overcorrected.
The amount you can borrow is up to 4 times gross income for first-time-buyers and 3.5 times gross income for other buyers.
e.g, a first-time buyer couple with a combined income of €100,000 can borrow up to €400,000.
A second and subsequent buyer with the same income can borrow up €350,000.
https://www.centralbank.ie/consumer-hub/explainers/what-are-the-mortgage-measures
@BenAveling So one needs to learn to make loads of money to bypass the bank...
Geez I've got work to do. 
@aral
@BenAveling I think this is due to the size of the deal...
And that's the same in other countries as well
@BenAveling @globcoco Yeah, but in this case, it’s not about that. It’s because we run a not for profit. Otherwise, we’re on PAYE and we check all the boxes.
@aral If this is the ONLY reason, this is crap mate (excuse my French). I really don't get this.
I'm gonna ask a very stupid question (which might show my ignorance here... I'm sorry in advance):
Does it mean that non-profit can't have assets? (I told you)
@globcoco @BenAveling It can have assets but it cannot make a profit. So we don’t have ownership/shares and we cannot take dividends. Any money not spent on costs (including salaries) stays in the organisation.
Got it.
Hence the refusal for the bank becoz they can't have access to the profit...
So with the suggested idea of building societies, could that resolved your issue?
But how to do that and keep being aligned with your values (keeping it small)?
@aral "It is what it is.", they say. RAtM said, "Sleep now in this fire."
@aral You're screwed on two levels.
You're self-employed, and you don't make any money. 