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“I don’t understand why everything is so fucked up and we seem incapable of fixing any of it!”
This is because you believe you live in a democracy when you actually live under capitalism.
(And it is functioning exactly as designed.)
PS. Not your fault; you’ve been taught your whole life that the two are complementary when they’re diametrically-opposed.
@aral Very well said
@aral I'd be very curious to hear how democracy without capitalism could be structured (putting aside for now the more interesting question of how the corresponding transition from the current state would happen).
The closest to a response I can think of is the ideas of Cornelius Castoriadis, but as many other things in life, it shows that the problem is that it's us not doing enough for a change:
https://www.pdcnet.org/pdc/bvdb.nsf/purchase_mobile?openform&fp=epoche&id=epoche_2010_0015_0001_0001_0012
@mapto @aral One of the various forms of economic democracy is most likely imo. See https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Economic_democracy
So many variations possible, like https://mastodon.social/@jlou/112080581372175879
@mapto @aral
Democracy without capitalism can be structured through decentralized decision-making processes, where communities collectively participate in shaping their own social, economic, and political systems. This could involve direct democracy, worker cooperatives, community councils, and decentralized planning mechanisms, all aimed at ensuring equal participation, collective ownership, and democratic control over resources and decision-making.
Fʀᴇᴇᴅᴏᴍ&Dᴇᴍᴏᴄʀᴀᴄʏ 
“I don’t understand why everything is so fucked up and we seem incapable of fixing any of it!”
I started reading thinking you were referring to technology. But in that case one would need to realize that it is fucked up in the first place let alone understand that it gets worse with every update and product release. Won't turn out good for civilization.
I imagine that someplace there are always coders using phrases like "it's good enough for government work".
The Secret Book of John
(The Apocryphon of John)
Translated by Stevan Davies
Three Plots against Humanity
They brought into being
Gold and silver,
Money and coins,
Iron and other metals and all things of this sort.
And the people who were attracted were led astray into troubles
And were greatly misled.
And grew old
Experiencing no pleasure,
And died
Finding no truth,
** the masses will never 'vote'/'vow' [etymology] their way out, no matter how hard they 'vote'/'vow' - Mr. T is also not who many think he is, beware to the Many:
https://www.yahwehyahuwshua.org/whoisdjt
@aral I know I keep dropping into threads to say this, and I have it in my profile, but it's important to think of "Capitalism" not as "free markets and stuff". It's actually a political system of rule-by-investor: those with the capital make the laws and pressure the executive arms that enforce them.
Capitalism is to our current era what the Church was to Medieval Europe: the overriding culture that influences everything else. I can’t help but think today’s turmoils echo the upheavals of the Reformation. Social media have provided us a place to burn our opponents at stakes, if only metaphorically.
@aral
#Capitalism is a model of how we work together to exchange value.
#Democracy is a model of how we govern our selves.
Two different things and we need both. The problem is we don't have a functioning democracy and thus capitalism is running without proper feedback and wealth is concentrating.
#democracy is more than how we vote!
Because of some of the issues we have with our democracy, we don't have free market capitalism; we have cronyism. Most of the actual, legitimate issues people take with the economy are the result of government interference, usually cronyism and collusion. If people actually understood capitalism and democracy and voted in a principled fashion, rather than a cowardly one, most of those issues could be solved.
The issues of cronyism and collusion are not examples of government interference. Those are examples of our government failure to properly regulate the capitalist.
What people need to understand is that we need a well-regulated capitalist system to maintain a free market society with well educated consumers that have real options and the freedom to choose.
#democracy is more than how we vote! Let's focus on that.
"The issues of cronyism and collusion are not examples of government interference. Those are examples of our government failure to properly regulate the capitalist."
It's both.
"What people need to understand is that we need a well-regulated capitalist system to maintain a free market society with well educated consumers that have real options and the freedom to choose."
I agree, for certain understandings of "well-regulated". We may mean VERY different things by that.
>>#Capitalism is a model of how we work together to exchange value.<<
No, it is not, and it never was. It's more like a religion that has been forcefully imposed on the vast majority of us, requiring us all to serve the imaginary but all-powerful god Capital.
It is an unsustainable model for endlessly extracting and concentrating wealth (power) from the earth and it's biosphere, including us, under the control of a tiny elite.
It is a model of coercion and control, imposing market society and alienation on every aspect of our lives.
@RD4Anarchy @mral @aral
I get tired of saying this. There is an economic system that does this. It's called Commons Capitalism.
The primary benefit of Commons Capitalism is to distribute profits to workers in the form of premium wages and Nordic-style benefits and spinoff replicate entities. The secondary benefit is to equitably distribute wealth, via worker's wages, throughout the community. The tertiary benefit is to halt the accumulation of the means of production in fewer individuals.
And I get tired of hearing you push your proprietary fantasy version of capitalism that has no path to reality because it ignores power, and by your own admission could never be implemented in time to stop the web of catastrophes we've already become ensnared in.
Good luck with your idea but I'm blocking you now.
@RD4Anarchy @Cirdan @aral
Im, specifically not blocking you:-) Its good to hear about alternative. It gives us hope, a chance to try something new. We need creative minds. Very few ideas get implemented exactly as first proposed but they contribute to a better solution. 1st we must believe that a better solution is possible.
I use to tell my design team;
Our goal is not to avoid problems, our goal is to not repeat problems and to make new, bigger, and better problems:-)
@mral @aral I wanted to add a few caveats but the more I thought about it, I found they're all included in the model.
I might only add that the solution to the feedback loop is unknown even if the target level was known - but people also don't agree on the target level.
There are many many people who don't believe in a goal of distributing wealth equally and of those there are many who think they are on the lower end of the accumulation side who are deep into the reduction side - and thus calling for the opposite of what would benefit them.
@mral @aral
Capitalism doesn't depend on the "three sisters," namely equality, egalitarianism, and democracy. Trying to implement them in capitalism is counterproductive to what capitalism should try to promote: equitable distribution of wealth within the community. The constructive form of capitalism is Commons Capitalism which will do precisely that while working to prevent the accumulation of property in fewer and fewer individuals.
Spartacus @aral Actually, it's my fault.
It's our fault.
Enough with the absolution.
It is everyone's fault when they allow themselves to believe the lies and propaganda sold by capitalism and the ruling class.
@aral EXACTLY THAT!
#Capitalism is the problem - everything else is a #symptom of it...
Yep. Democracy & capitalism are not the same thing. You are 100% right on.
Would you be interested in investigating an alternative democracy?
https://tiereddemocraticgovernance.org/blog_details.php?blog_cat_id=30&id=12
@davevolek Will take a look when I get a moment, thanks :)
Nah, one more "sniff" capital injection will sort "snort" this whole mess out.
"cough"
Make that two.