Dear @gitlab, after reading this, I am ashamed to be using your product:

We will stop using it as soon as we can manage to and I will stop recommending you to others. Unlike you, we don’t associate with folks incompatible with our values.

Shame on you.

@aral damn it, I was going to move to them after Github (who is bad enough) defended working with ICE.

Any idea what platform you may use in the future?

@danarel @aral Gitea's relatively easy to self-host, if that's an option

@lifning what I don't get is, why dont they host their own code?

@danarel @aral

If you don't want to self-host, @codeberg is worth considering. They are a German not-for-profit dedicated to free software and collaboration.
They offer free hosting and voluntary membership if you want to contribute.

@ck @danarel @aral @codeberg Looks like they run on Gitea, which I was going to say is a solid alternative:

@matt @danarel @aral
Yes, they are. They are also pretty involved in upstream development of Gitea itself, ie. contributing code back to the project and such.

@aral I’m always surprised by how little love BitBucket gets. It’s low on nonsense so far.

@danarel @aral I'd always vote for Phabricator, although I know it's not for everyone (it's very unlike GitHub/GitLab/etc in its interface in many ways).

@keithzg @aral @danarel Unfortunately, Phabricator/Phacility is hosted on GitHub, instead of being self-hosted. :blobcatwaitwhat:

@aidalgol @danarel @aral Err, what? The official source is self-hosted by Phabricator at, and the GitHub mirror even says "We do not accept pull requests through GitHub".

@keithzg @aral @danarel Oh, good! Their site footer gave me the impression that they were using GitHub only. That and I did not see any obvious link to the Phabricator-hosted Phabricator source code.

@danarel @aral I'm going to throw out as well, since I haven't seen anyone else mention it already.

@danarel @aral Oh, is the same thing as sourcehut, which was already suggested.

@danarel @aral

This statement only applies to the corporation called GitLab Inc., not to the free software product called GitLab Community Edition. You can still use any one of the many independent instances running GitLab CE.

A CEO's statement about his company policy doesn't suddenly discredit the work of hundreds of contributors who put years into making GitLab CE.

@aral what's significant to me is that if this was truly their position -- with no caveats, with no political motives -- they could just as easily have said nothing. Instead, in the age of ICE contracts, they went out of their way to include this so that they would have something to point to when people asked why they were, idk, providing deployment tools to Palantir or some shit

@aral @gitlab wow, this is shockingly bad.

Also, “we do not discuss politics in the workplace”? Which century are you living in? You can’t avoid politics! This is just gaslighting people into accepting the political positions of those in leadership under the guise of an apolitical stance.

@szbalint @aral @gitlab "we don't discuss politics" actually means "we mandate centrism"

@szbalint @aral @gitlab Agreed this is really bad. That addendum not only gives them a framework to justify collaborating with horrible people, but furthermore they "welcome everyone outside of [the] restrictions" of "trade compliance laws". And the commit is from the founder and CEO himself, who seems to be a major figure in the organisation. The text has gone live

@aral @gitlab
Why do you feel this is wrong (doing business with someone who does not share your values)?
I'd dare say this is a very broad concept.
I'll risk saying everyone in this thread has published GPLed code, and it can be used by anyone, regardless of their intentions. Should we restrict our licenses because of this?

PS - I'm not by any means implying you are somehow wrong, I'm just trying to understand your perspective!

@FPinaMartins @gitlab IBM did business with the Nazis and helped them carry out the Holocaust.

@djayroma @FPinaMartins @gitlab How about you take your Godwin point and shove it up your smug ass? Take a fucking look around you, history is about to repeat itself unless we do something about it and you’re spending your time parroting stale Internet memes in a misconstrued calculation that your privilege will save you when it happens. Then again, what am I saying, having just glanced at your handle, you’re probably going to be wearing the latest Hugo boss attire while holding the door to it.

@FPinaMartins @djayroma @aral really? I dont see jews rushing out of the country. Gays and trns arent being theown off buildingtops. The worst thing so called nazis have ever done were make memes and point and laugh at you.
@aral @djayroma @FPinaMartins "No, you don't understand, the First Order is the Anti-Empire. Ignore the third giant space ball and widespread censorship and violence and exclusivity on basic infrastructure."

Nazi ment. 


Mike Godwin called, he told you to stop flippantly invoking him where his law doesn't apply.

@aral @gitlab
Ok, fair ponit, albeit, if I recall "IBM and the Hollocaust" correctlly, the values of the people in IBM responsible for helping with the holocaust were aligned with the nazis' at the time. A caluse such as @gitlab would not have had any effect.

I also consider this a *very* slippery slope. Where do we draw the line? Should religous people not do business with atheists? Should capitalists not do business with socialists? Should vegeterians not do business with "meat eaters"? 1/2

@FPinaMartins @aral yeah the idea that a license, a piece of text, would do anything to prevent genocide is ridiculous. "ethical source" in general is a preposterous and very poorly thought out idea
@FPinaMartins @aral ford was a naI sympathizer, japan were nazi allies. No anime or tech for you!

@FPinaMartins @aral @gitlab people are actually talking about creating licenses with ethical restrictions!

Because we live in a time when software developed for innocuous reasons can easily be used for the purposes of mass surveillance, ethnic cleansing, state censorship, etc.

Moral people who build tools and run services are asking themselves how they contribute to such things and how they can prevent it.

@nev @aral @gitlab
Can you please provide me with some "starter" resource links for this issue so I can learn more?
The way I see it (before studying the subject in depth) is that license restrictions (even if laden with good intentions) are easier to abuse for discrimination than something that is not restricted end up being used for nefarious purposes.
I am, of course, willing to change my opinion, based on more information.
Thank you in advance.

@nev @FPinaMartins @aral @gitlab I mean licenses with ethical restrictions are a bad idea, but for different reasons

@nev @FPinaMartins @aral @gitlab how do you handle different incompatible ethical licenses? or ones that have, say, SWERF or TERF bullshit in them? being non-viral could fix this, but what's the point then? how do you translate ethical concerns into legal terms, nevermind enforcing them? dealing with ethical problems at the license level is a mistake

@a_breakin_glass @nev @FPinaMartins @aral @gitlab minimal terms, like the UNHRC, and not including software people don't want you to? intellectual property is theft and the gpl is a clever way to use it to subvert itself but we're never gonna have a perfect way to guarantee all freedoms except those that restrict freedoms

I think it's good and admirable to try and I'd love to see someone getting in trouble for breaking copyright law because they used my code to bomb a hospital

> I'd love to see someone getting in trouble for breaking copyright law because they used my code to bomb a hospital

I've never seen a better argument for the pointlessness of applying morality licenses to software. Either;
a) the Bad Thing done with the software is already illegal under more powerful laws than copyright
b) the Bad Thing is being done by (or for) a state who hold themselves above the law including copyright law.

@a_breakin_glass @nev @FPinaMartins @aral @gitlab

@amsomniac so morality licenses turn free code into proprietary software in order to pursue goals they cannot possibly achieve with a copyright license, for the same reason you can't make water flow uphill. Anyone who think they can, simply has no idea how the world works.

@a_breakin_glass @nev @FPinaMartins @aral @gitlab

@strypey @amsomniac @a_breakin_glass @nev @FPinaMartins "people who are OK with doing evil thing, would be OK breaking copyright law" is a good point.

But often plenty of people are OK with helping the person who does the evil thing without being OK doing the evil thing themselves. Ethical source licences would be effective to stop that intermediary from using your software, and hence limit the evil person's actions

> IBM & the Holocaust?

... is a classic example of scenario b) from the OP.
Copyright licenses could not have prevented IBM helping the German government with the holocaust because the German government (and their designated agents) are not subject to copyright law. Even if they were, they would have just used emergency powers under martial law to cancel any enforcement attempted against IBM.

@strypey IBM is a US corp. Surely if it was using US copyrighted material with such a clause, then it (the US corp) won't be able to profit from doing a deal with them.

Yes, the German government at the time could ignore that, and take what they want. But IBM wouldn't have been able to financially benefit from it.

> Surely if it was using US copyrighted material with such a clause, then it (the US corp) won't be able to profit from doing a deal with them.

Why? US copyright law doesn't apply outside the US.

@strypey But it applies to the US company in the US.

e.g. imagine I (was in USA &) wrote a FLOSS library with such a “do no evil” clause. IBM US uses it to make a software product. They want to sell it to someone like the Nazis. Can't I sue IBM in the US for violating my copyright?

Sure Nazi Germany can just steal the software product, but IBM in the USA can't financially benefit, right?

@ebel IANAL but my understanding is that multinational corporations work by having a home country where their official HQ is, sometimes chosen for tax avoidance purposes (US for IBM), and setting up subsidiaries in the host country (IBM Nazi Germany), which operate under local law (when they can't avoid it). IBM Germany is not bound by US copyright law, and there are various means (eg licensing of "IP" like trademarks) by which profits are returned to the capitalists who own the parent company.

@strypey Yeah, but IBM US would surely be bound by US copyright law, which might mean they can't copy stuff to IBM nazi germany, right?

@ebel I think you imagine copyright law as being much more powerful than it is. If the source code was published, IBM US could just claim the Nazis gave copies to IBM Germany, none of which is in the jurisdiction of US law. You'd have a better chance of achieving the goals of the morality licenses if you didn't publish source code, so you could control who gets access. But then you couldn't try to have your cake and eat it too by claiming it's a more ethical variant of open source.

@ebel BTW
> FLOSS library with such a “do no evil” clause.

... is a contradiction. A library that doesn't grant freedom 0 isn't free, libre, or open, as those terms are applied in software licensing. So it's not "FLOSS" either.

@strypey Yes I know that goes against Freedom 0.😛 I mean, “Imagine something like the GPL/BSD which had such a clause”

@ebel I know what you meant. It would be proprietary software with source available, like Microsoft's "Shared Source":

Those who don't learn their history are doomed to repeat it.

@a_breakin_glass @nev @FPinaMartins @aral @gitlab well, you'd have to clone libraries with licenses you don't like, the same way that already happens

Some people would consider this cost perfectly acceptable

@aral @maarteuh @gitlab "vetting customers is time consuming and potentially distracting"

If you think vetting customers is "time consuming and distracting", wait till you experience the consequences of NOT vetting your customers

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