The kids aren’t depressed because of iPhones; they’re depressed because you told them they live in a democracy and then mired them in late-stage capitalism.
And why yes, late-stage capitalism is a euphemism for extinction-stage capitalism, thank you for asking.
You can either have rule by the people (democracy) or rule by the capital-owning class (capitalism), but not both.
(Any time you think you have both, you don’t; you have capitalism.)
@aral I don't want either. I don't want to be ruled.
@Alephwyr You and me both :)
@aral I don't think I can fully commit to anarchism because as a partial consequentialist I want to preserve optionality in pursuing critical goals. However, other people are allowed to and encouraged to injure, torture, or kill me if my excesses become unbearable.
@Alephwyr
> other people are allowed to and encouraged to injure, torture, or kill me if my excesses become unbearable
That's the underlying reality of all human societies, regardless of political-economic system. As summed up in that old saying that those who make peaceful revolution impossible make violent revolution inevitable. See also David Graeber's writing about where constitutional legitimacy comes from (spoiler: the last violent revolution or coup).
> I want to preserve optionality in pursuing critical goals.
you you mean you want to keep pursuing critical goals optional, or preserve an option to pursue critical goals? and what does that have to do with anarchism?
but obviously, allowing and encouraging people to torture and murder because they find people "unbearable" isn't anarchist at all…
do you mean plutocracy?
capitalism (an economic system of dividing and trading ownership of companies) and plutocracy (rule by the rich) are not identical concepts, though lately the terms have conflated, i get that
plutocracy sucks, but capitalism and democracy cohabitate fine as long as the capitalists are well regulated by the democrats, which they’re totally fucking not these days
power’s a problem with all isms and cracys
yes, agreed, which is why it would have been useful to keep separate terms for those separate concepts
oh well, now every ism is a cracy too, now, i guess
yes that’s exactly what i’m saying
the underlying enemy isn’t capitalism *per se*, it’s greed, power, authoritarians, dehumanization, racial discrimination, tribal supremacy, fraud, theocracy, aristocracy, monarchy, sacrificing public good for private gain…
basically anything that violates the golden rule and pierces the veil of ignorance and treats human beings like pieces of meat to squeeze labor or profit or blood out of
*greed is the worst sin*
power-hungry people will exploit whatever systems they see, ideology be damned
and compassionate people will work within whatever system they’re trapped in, and maybe try to improve or replace it
@alexch @spacehobo @aral "…treats human beings like pieces of meat to squeeze labor or profit or blood out of"
Yes, but can you have an industrialized capitalist nation without wage slavery? I can't think of any examples, and it seems like capitalist nations go out of their way to avoid basic income and a free market for labor.
i don’t see why that’s a “but” not an “and” — it’s in line with the statement you quoted
power corrupts, corruption empowers, merchants monopolize, bosses oppress & exploit, leaders lie, history repeats, human nature is eternal, idealists rise and dream and fail and despair, our reach exceeds our grasp (else what’s a heaven for?), & we all have to keep trying to make the world better for all, in vain, forever ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
@alexch @spacehobo @aral So if capitalism inherently leads to the problems cited, doesn't that mean capitalism is a problem, a root cause even?
the root problem is *greed*
along with several other essential eternal antisocial irrational parts of human nature and all social systems ever deployed at scale
(including capitalist and mercantilist and democratic and socialist and authoritarian and republican and theocratic and monarchic and tribal and feudal and…)
@alexch @spacehobo @aral So maybe we should try to come up with systems that try to compensate for eternal antisocial parts of human nature like greed, rather than systems that actively reward them?
yes, that’s the plan, ever since the Age of Enlightenment, and insiders like Elizabeth Warren are trying to do that inside the system and mostly getting smacked down by plutocrats and their befuddled minions, and outsiders like Occupy get smacked down too, by violent cops and timid centrists
we all know how to use the tools of capitalism to benefit society — by taxing the rich, and regulating markets, and building public works, and expanding welfare programs, and so forth — but the rich don’t like that plan, and they fight dirty
@spacehobo @alexch @aral
Ah yes....but they've convinced the ordinary citizen that plutocracy is exactly what they want...
yes, just as as all -archs and -crats throughout human history have done
it’s greed, it’s power, it’s hierarchy, it’s feudalism, it’s dictatorship, it’s totalitarianism, it’s supremacy, it’s genocide, it’s out-group oppression, it’s colonialism, it’s nationalism, it’s xenophobia…
it’s people treating people like animals and excusing their own avarice with ideology and propaganda and superstition and bullshit and lies
@alexch @spacehobo @aral
I couldn't agree more, and the stupidity and hypocrisy are really getting me down.
❝ And the worst possible thing we could know — worse than knowing of our descent from a mass of microorganisms — is that we are nobodies not somebodies, puppets not people. ❞
- Thomas Ligotti
just block me, bro, i don’t need your consent to toot in public
@alexch @aral @spacehobo capitalism fights to break free from democratic oversight by destroying institutions. The two are fundamentally at odds.
@alexch
Maybe capitalism trends sooner or later to plutocracy? Having a tendency to enable rich fuckers.
yes, it does, but so does every ism
all human systems are vulnerable to corruption and manipulation by the powerful
eternal vigilance is the price of liberty
and we are currently reaping what Clinton and Obama sowed when they took their eyes off the ball and sucked up to the globalists and bankers and biz guys and tech bros and screwed over the working class and let Trump mobilize the paranoid fascist racist evil mob again and oh well, it was a nice run
@alexch yeah but you can establish a system with checks and balances at the start, or none. Maintenance is always needed, but maybe less in some systems than others.
how about capitalism as rule by the money printing people?
Some have less, some have more capital to rule more or less, but it is all dwarfed by the money printers - the money printers makes all the billionaires. They dont earn that money, they get it from the printers and friends of printers.
That is the defining characteristic of capitalism
@aral Capitalism is just cancer of the economy.
@aral democracy a way for a ruling class to get in power, capitalism is a way for this ruling class to exercise power.
why would there be a contradiction? and you wouldn't expect those things to come in some "pure" form anyway, because systems of power exist to maintain themselves, not to fulfill some platonic ideal.