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“If you want to live in the UK, you should speak English.”
– Keir Starmer, a real boy
@aral
I'd very much prefer if everyone - yes, even the Brits - would need to learn Esperanto, as it's much easier to learn than English.
Unfortunately, it's not a very realistic suggestion.
@fasnix @aral too much national pride attached to language. It would take a couple of generations of schooling and media production to move the needle. It seems less of a leap for French/Spanish/Italian speakers than English/German/Cantonese, but it's on my to-do list when I am elected Supreme Ruler!
@Offbeatmammal
Funfact:
There exists an UN resolution from the 1960's (if I remember correctly) that suggests all countries to teach Esperanto to their people.
And as far as I know, it was never revoked, but still active.
Sad fact:
Nearly no country teaches Esperanto officially (Hungary, I guess does, and China, as English would be "their enemy's language", or something like that).
Actually, their exists a large number of learning material in lots of national languages.
There are some millions of people in at least 120 countries worldwide, who learn(ed) and speak Esperanto.
The thing is that many native English speakers say (or think):
"Well, everyone speaks English, why should I learn a foreign language anyway?"
It's a huge advantage for native English speakers, not just personally, but also economically.
@aral
@fasnix @aral when I was at school (I am almost 60 now, so a long time ago) back in the UK there was a short-lived Esperanto club. Problem was, outside of the small group there was little opportunity to practice (unlike the French and German which were formal classes). As a native English speaker I do agree we are (as a generalisation) the least motivated to learn other languages, but it's only now when German is something I need to learn for family reasons it's a significant barrier.
@aral Someone has got to get this guy on a plane to Malaga to meet all the English people who are Very Good at Spanish.
Signed, a Brit who’s lived in Switzerland for 5 years and can’t speak German or French.
@piggo Are you serious?
@ekaitz_zarraga @aral @piggo In EU it is extremely rare to demand language certificates for temporary residencies. For permanent residencies it is more often, but the language level can be pretty basic — A1. For citizenships almost every EU country demand some kind of a language certificate, usually A2 or B1.
@yacodes @aral @piggo oh yes, but most of the places have official languages and all their documentation is released in them and probably not in any other.
Living in spain without spanish is extremely hard in my city, for example (in others you could live with english or german because of tourism, and this is not something i like). You need to know the law, and that is written in spanish, go to the doctor, etc etc.
So yeah, you should, at least know some spanish.
For your own good.
@ekaitz_zarraga @aral @piggo There is a difference between migration policies which require language certificates and handling the language barrier within the environment.
Consider a country with the official language policy and an immigrant who studies a language for a year and then requests a residence — this immigrant should have quite a lot of privilege in terms of time and money. Immigration becomes even less accessible. These efforts can also be in vain if the request is refused.
@yacodes @aral @piggo Yes, of course. I'm not denying this. I don't live in the UK so maybe my english is not great but that's for me the difference between the "should" vs the "must".
In any case, the same philosophy could be very welcoming, more than the opposite. If our country is aware the people should speak its language, the result of that might be to give the migrants that don't the resources to learn the language, free of charge, while they adapt to life in the country.
@yacodes @aral @piggo I work with many people from abroad, that come here looking for opportunities: I teach on government subsidized courses for the unemployed.
Those that have issues with the languages are the ones that have more trouble finding a job, and being happy here. Even if they find a job, they have a hard time with coworkers and feeling part of it. It's normal.
We have public language schools for this. That are supercheap, and you can learn spanish there (also foreign languages).
@yacodes @aral @piggo This is not a fascist idea in my opinion, but one that puts the social problem of being a migrant on top of the table and tries to tackle it properly, giving people chances to be included.
It's not erasing people's language, but helping them thrive in a new place, where the social context is different. The language is a huge factor of it.
I have many examples of this: Ukranian refugees that learned English and Spanish and their life changed, people from Romania, Moldova..
@ekaitz_zarraga @aral @piggo Seems like the original message is missing the context then. Stramer is talking about restricting immigration based on the language knowledge, not increasing financial support for the public language schools. This kind of policy restricts immigration severly, makes it accessible only to the financially successfull immigrants, and putting a lot of pressure (deportation) on the immigrants who are already living in the country.
@ekaitz_zarraga @aral @piggo There is an ocean of difference between saying: "From now on we are going to support public language schools and integration courses, so everyone can be integrated and feel welcomed in our society." and "Immigrants must learn our language and we will restrict the immigration rules according to that.".
@ekaitz_zarraga @aral @piggo Of course, immigrants should learn the language of their new country, it is incredible that you're working with the unemployed and helping them to integrate.
But one must understand that it is incredibly difficult for non-EU immigrants to get a residence as the policy is implemented now. If one needs to have a language certificate to obtain a residence too, there will be almost no immigrants at all.
@yacodes @aral @piggo Of course, but that the sentence of the original message alone is not a fascist statement.
Context is important, and reducing everything to one sentence to call people fascists is exactly what would make the kind of policies that I described be considered fascists too, by those who don't really pay attention to anything else.
I think it is our moral obligation to provide a framework for thinking so people could learn more than just to label things according to they saw.
@piggo Indeed. This is exactly what the English are famous for doing, isn’t it?
Here are the languages spoken in the UK, please educate yourself instead of defending fascist dog whistles: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Languages_of_the_United_Kingdom
@aral
I wonder if he will turn red after I'll speak the kind of french for which I will not ask for pardon.
Edit, or: all the people to whom the British empire came before they came to Brittan: *oh, sod off*.
@aral if I want to get residency in, say, Austria or France I need to be able to demonstrate proficiency in the official language of the country. Arguably a higher barrier for English speakers moving abroad as they are used to being able to get by simply speaking loudly and slowly!
@aral says the guy whose country creates Geordies