Current = Pop!_OS 18.10
New = Pop!_OS 19.04
@aral I'll certainly agree with you that the new version is much, much worse. 😅
I don't think it's about the consistency of icons though, it's much more about how that lizard with a transparent background is an awful idea in the first place.
@aral Never heard of Pop!_OS before. Makes me think there are too many distributions with merely minor differences in styling – which could have been contributed to major distributions as packages instead, thus being available for a much larger crowd, that could also build on those and maintain it as a community.
A somewhat related HN thread: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=19089745
@david Pop!_OS does go far beyond aesthetic differences. Also: the greatest advantage is that System76 makes the whole widget.
@aral The downside of them changing policy and adopting the Gnome style guidelines and the guideline especially to not change applications' icons.
I'll try not to be too smug as a KDE guy ;)
seriously though, icon packs are a good thing. maybe you want a standard for upstream, but downstrream can and should be able to do whatever they want. i'm quite partial to using the Materia theme with Faenza Darkest icons. I do wish Token had more app coverage, though.
Really, all I'm here to say is "let people use whatever icons they want", yknow. The only thing I mean by "downstream" is "everyone who isn't the maker of the app". That includes both distros and end users. End users can, of course, put in the work to theme everything, but distros should be doing that too.
@trwnh hey, he's just trolling
(reg "quantumstream" etc.)
Just laugh, no offense… 😆
@aral This and the poor touchpad support were the main reasons I switched to Mac after 8 or 9 years as a staunch GNU/Linux person. I’m so much happier with my OS and my computer than I have ever been before.
@albin hu, maybe in the past this was bad, but my touchpad works…
even _touch screen_ actually… no idea, what issues you had 🤷
@rugk Problems with multi-touch and gestures (which is sort of OK), even basic ones like scrolling (which isn't great), and severe problems with palm rejection, which I have never gotten to work anywhere (which basically makes the computer unusable).
@albin @rugk Admittedly, multitouch is a bit wonky still depending on which touch handlers you have (or don't have). But things have improved greatly thanks to libinput (vs. all the old mess of drivers). Installing Arch on my UX301 (Elantech touchpad, Atmel touchscreen), I get working touchpad, working palm rejection, and working two-finger-scroll. No pinch-to-zoom except in certain programs that are touch-aware -- unless you install/configure a daemon like Fusuma or Touchegg.
@trwnh ...that's exactly what I'm talking about. How many years before all of those things are there by default do you think? Because my experience is that everything is always "almost working with some tinkering" and then never actually gets there.
@albin my comment was targeted at rugk moreso than you. but to answer your question, it's generally "when someone cares". and sadly, a lot of companies still don't care, so it's up to people with free time and access to that hardware to reverse-engineer what they need to use.
but again, it's generally progressed from "everything needs tinkering" to "mostly everything works except for edge cases". more and more stuff is working "out-of-the-box" than years ago.
@albin used to be that you couldn't rely on anything except ethernet. now, you can also generally rely on wifi; intel graphics are solid; touchpads will work with two-finger scroll; etc.
but on the other hand... nvidia continues to be painful due to their hostility; laptop fn-keys are hit-or-miss; etc.
so we're above 90% there already. and another 9% can be handled by distros. that leaves 1% that really depends on external support (niche/uncommon hardware, or outright hostility).
@datenteiler My Mac is way more reliable than any of my previous machines were (wifi always works, no crashes), and I can tinker with most things I care about.
It's not that I don't care about software freedom; I do. About eight years or so I more or less flunked university in part because I refused to use things like Matlab and Java (which was non-free at the time).
I also bought my machine used, it's six years old and still not slowing down.
@datenteiler I have spent probably entire days of my life I will never get back recompiling Linux kernels. I have run Debian, Gentoo, BSDs, GNU/Hurd, Ubuntu, and Arch. I have tinkered with virtually every tiling WM and DE. And you know what? They still all looked like shit.
@albin @datenteiler That's not my focus. In my eyes all Desktops looks the same and that's including Windows and MacOS. They look all good and I can work with them, but I like them more when they're free software. I've no problems with Bluetooth or with the touchpad on my Linux desktop and I don't have to recompile a Kernel for years now. But I only use business notebooks from Fujitsu, Dell, Lenovo etc. They usually have an excellent Linux support.
@datenteiler All my previous machines were Thinkpads. WiFi was still wonky, and the touchpad still didn’t work. Also I held my breath every time I resumed from suspend, because sometimes it never woke up.
It took me years to trust things like resume/suspend, Bluetooth audio and WiFi fully, and now they just work and I don’t have to think about it.
Last time I installed Ubuntu on my desktop machine, it crashed on shutdown before powering off, every time.
@datenteiler looking forward to that future
@datenteiler @albin @aral
Therese are quite some Linux distros which work out of the box today. Manjaro is one of these. They are pretty easy to use and Manjaro even has multiple images for the same version with different desktop enviorments. Linux doesn't has to be be hard to use these days.
I heard good things about pop OS as well, but I also heard from different people that they got problems with it and I didn't tried it myself.
I agree there are many good examples for easy to use Linux distributions but I wouldn't put Manjaro there in first place. Not because it's hard to install, but because it's hard to maintain over years. Especially when you decide to take off a few weeks, updates become hard.
My regular "Can you help me with this" experience taught me that Manjaro tends to pile up regression problems over months you are using it. Especially when updates aren't applied every day.
So, in Thunderbird I click on Attach, locate the file and click on Ok - seems intuitive enough.
Folders - I double click on mine to open them but of course if I wanted to then I could change the settings to allow me to open them with a single click.
Of course, people with Apple's 'Think Different' and thus may find this way of doing things awkward lol
@oshwm Not really sure what you're getting at. I can totally attach a file by going the other way round. What I can't do is what I described (drag from desktop). The problem is not the dragging part. (Drag+Drop works fine from Nautilus) the problem is the "from desktop" part.
Same with the other example: The problem wasn't the clicking/doubliclicking but that there was no simple way (clicking, doubliclicking, enter-key) to open a desktop folder. Only workaround: Right-Click-Context-Menu.
I see what you mean, I don't store files on the desktop - I only use it for putting shortcuts to applications and so it works well this way for me.
If you store files on the desktop then it obviously doesn't suit your way of working but KDE might :)
@datenteiler I have no f*ckin clue, and I have other things to do than chasing this down. After years on various distributions, I found errors like these in pretty much all of them, so I circled back to ubuntu because they're hitting the relative sweet-spot of "works as intended" most of the time.
To preempt your next toot: Yes I contribute to free software in various ways. No, I don't need YET another project. I really want to just consume this.
It may have been 17.10, not 18.04. Still: I wasn't the only person with that particular issue: https://askubuntu.com/questions/984153/cant-open-desktop-folders-by-double-clicking-on-ubuntu-17-10
Oh and Ubuntu 18.10 had another funny problem regarding the desktop: If you copy a file to the desktop, you get no progress indicator whatsoever. It happily copies everything, but you'll never know when it's done. (other copy targets work fine and give you this tiny pie-chart in nautilus. Only Desktop doesn't).
Personally Mac and Windows isnt good for my work and have too many issues to be used and demand too much work by me to set them up for it, but the idea that FOSS people demand or want you to use Linux (for example) is simply not true. Use what you need, as long as you made an active choice thats fine
@animeirl That has very much been the opposite of my experience, heh. Literally had Gnome outright fail to log in last time I tried to on a *buntu 18.04 system recently, and once I finally got it to I discovered the Gnome side of things doesn't surface the "automatically connect" option for VPN configs so I immediately had to choose to use another DE or the CLI instead anyways :P
@keithzg they both suck, buy a mac
@animeirl Sure, if you want nearly zero interface choice and hilariously underpowered hardware with keyboards that break if a single speck of dust gets in!
@keithzg still more usable than KDE!
@animeirl See, that's why Linux is good, if you find an environment unusable because of personal reasons (or failings) you can choose another!
@keithzg what is there all bad though
@aral Ha ha, I switched to Pop!_OS largely based on your glowing reviews ;p Don't worry, I'm a distro-hopper.
Where are we hopping next then?
@douginamug Still on Pop!_OS. See https://ar.al/2019/04/20/fixing-the-icon-regression-in-pop_os-19.04/
There’s more to it than icons ;)
@aral ugh. You are reinforcing my decision to stay on 18.04
@aral wtf? :/
@jlelse Indeed. And changing the theme is similarly easy. It’s not much work at all to install a different display environment and quite painless these days to add a new kernel. People on macOS do all these things all the time so I’m sure Linux folks can also manage it.
@jlelse Nope, I never tried it. I don’t run a hugely customised GNOME environment as my daily driver because I haven’t been developing for ~ 35 years. Oh, no, wait… all those things *and* I know that this isn’t about me. Right, that’s it!
@aral I’m not familiar with how Linux development works and thus also don’t want to comment on how to approach this problem, but aesthetically this is a massive step backwards
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