@aral This is exactly that concept that #OrangeCMS is also implementing. It is a tiny blogging platform with a news/rss engine made for exactly one person to write to it. :-)

@CyReVolt Nice to hear :) We should compare notes on deployment/setup etc., sometime. Does everyone get their own VPS?

@kuleszdl

TBH, I read the article and thought there's a lot of crossover. The same? No.

There are different values:

#SmallWeb values privacy and accessibility for the content consumer whereas #IndieWeb values the publisher having total independence and control over their content.

Can you do both? Sure. But they're a Venn Diagram, not concentric circles.

Is that about right, @aral ?

@thelonelyghost @kuleszdl Small Web is single tenant. I’m very familiar with the IndieWeb folks and their approach. When we were strongly criticising Google, Facebook, etc. six years ago, they were calling us extremists and ridiculing our work. I’m not going to reopen that can of worms. All I have to say on the matter is that Small Web is not IndieWeb and Small Technology Foundation has nothing to do with the IndieWeb folks. And I’d rather not discuss this further.

@aral @kuleszdl personal arguments aside, I'm interested in a compare and contrast sort of thing and it seems like I'm not the only one. Perhaps a list outlining the similarities and differences between #IndieWeb and #SmallTech movements, sans value judgements.

I'll spend some time researching and post something to my blog when it feels about 90% of the way there.

@aral It is up to the people to set up and maintain their infra. I want to be most agnostic of OSs and runtimes. The functionality is by design and intention kept simple enough so that it can be ported to any DBS (at least relational ones), and the engine itself is kept just as small, could be reimplemented in whatever people like, and in the same fashion, people can create whatever templates they like for rendering. See doc.orangecms.org/.

@aral I'm sure that wasn't exactly the answer you were hoping for. Do you have an idea how to enable people to run and maintain their own infra? Lots of tools are out there, but still require quite some understanding from my experience, and I am constantly seeing developers strugglibg with their own setup even. VMs and containers are not helping there; you would actually need to maintain even more. What are your thoughts? I would love to exchange further in that regard :)

@CyReVolt in this regard @yunohost is doing an amazing work !
making handling infrastructure, security and app ecosystem in a community first oriented way.

@CyReVolt @aral probably the most common infra that a nontechnical person would manage is something like a Raspberry Pi (or equivalent SBC).

I had that idea for my own purposes, but it came down to an always-online expectation. IPFS and DHT protocols might help with that, but... Accessibility with legacy WWW tooling (browsers, servers) became the problem. And so on...

@aral okay, I don't disagree in general, of course, but have a small point: computer users were called that way before Silicon Valley and it had nothing to do with drug dealing. It's not a big deal but little things like that might make an otherwise persuasive article needlessly come off as a sort of deranged hate piece from another camp.

@isagalaev It’s an analogy I make often. I don’t think anyone’s going to think “wow, did they litreally borrow the term from drug dealers.” (I mean, they’re not actually factory farms either.) :)

@aral I was thinking about this computer/drug "users" analogy some more, and actually it tracks pretty well: self-righteous people who try to force users to just stop using are making things worse, not better. If you actually care about helping users, your should be working on harm reduction mechanisms (safe injection sites, useful and usable privacy-respecting apps for Android and iOS), and pushing government to hold Big Pharma/Big Tech accountable for getting people addicted in order to boost their profits.

@isagalaev Also, I have exactly zero fucks to give what Silicon Valley folks have to think about it. I don’t work for them and I’m not trying to persuade anyone who might be in a different camp :)

@aral I'm more concerning about impartial people who would try and read that as an educational piece but get spooked by the harsh rhetoric.

Anyway, I'm not trying to tell you who to write for in any way, just wanted to point that one fact out :-)

@isagalaev I appreciate it. I’m just past the point of having any fucks left to give after six years of working on this problem and having heard every criticism leveled at us for trying to do the right thing. At this point, I’m making this, it’s going to exist, and anyone who wants to use it and help improve it or build on it can and anyone who wants to bitch about it can do one.

I’ll leave the diplomacy to the diplomats :)

@isagalaev (Sorry to unload on you, by the way, I’m just frustrated.) :)

@aral I envy your energy! I just gave up at some point.

@isagalaev It doesn’t sound like you have :)

PS. Thank you for highlight.js. I use it on the server side of the Site.js web site (sitejs.org). It’s excellent.

@aral by "give up" I mean I don't blog as often as I want to, don't talk about independent Internet enough, don't push Fediverse on people enough :-)

Re: highlight.js, you're welcome! Although I don't take part in the project actively nowadays. I just run the server and explain weird things about code to new people :-)

@aral @isagalaev There are no impartial people waiting to be swayed only by the most carefully worded argument. It's a classic tone policing trick that you should drop from your repertoire, whether you know why you are using it or not.

I personally look at what people do, and if they use some harsh words in the process, it doesn't matter towards their goal that I can appreciate on its own. Nobody should spend time on people more interested in words than action.

Keep on, Aral.

@hypolite @aral if you go and read my original toot you'll see that I was correcting a minor factual point, and afterwards explicitly said I wasn't telling the author how to write. So while I happily take your point about there not being impartial people, I'd also appreciate if you won't assume anything about my "repertoire" and my motives and stop telling me what I should do.

@hypolite @aral @isagalaev It wasn't a factual point and thus you didn't correct it. It was about your worry it "might make an otherwise persuasive article needlessly come off as a sort of deranged hate piece from another camp." which was unfounded at best, malicious at worst.

There, I corrected a minor factual point.
What's the principal difference from self-hosting homes like @FreedomBox, @YunoHost, #Sandstorm, and so on?

@aral
Thank you for the post! It's a new point of view on web for me and I'm very inspired by the idea of small web.
The post is about solutions for developers. Are there any ready-made solutions for simple people? What can I use right now, if I'm a layman in IT?

@VGM Step 1. Developers :) Step 2. Everyone else (hopefully thanks to those developers) ;)

In the meanwhile stopgaps exist, even if they may not be Small Web/Small Tech. See, for example, switching.software

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