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Capitalism is just monarchy with a gift shop attached.

@aral This always baffles me about people who think we actually went from "kings are in charge" to "people are in charge".

Like... do they think the crown didn't do everything in their power to move and hide their wealth around to actually stay in power?!

@im Cutting off heads is a bloody business that usually ends up simply replacing one hierarchy with another. I’d rather we spend our energy creating non-hierarchical structures.

@aral Ok, my point was that the bourgeoisie overthrew feudalism, so capitalism is not monarchy.

But still, you're right, we're not citizens in regards of the production sphere of society.

Building less hierarchical structure is a good idea, but keep in mind that hierarchy rebuilds easily itself if you believe we can live absolutely without it.

And finally, if we manage to build enough non-capitalist propositions in order to be a thread to the bourgeoisie, they will cut off our heads.

@im @aral the thing is that human societies, for as long as (pre)historians and archaeologists can interpret their traces have gone in waves back and forth between varying degrees of hierarchical and anarchic organisation.

except that for the past five hundred years or so the trend was, globally, towards hierarchy, and not only that, but a global hierarchy.

from a communication point of view, that makes no sense. it doesn't scale.
only violence does, it seems.

@meena I'm not as precise as I would like in English, unfortunately. What I meant is that's a risk to try to build non-hierarchical social structure without knowing that some hierarchy will always exists. So it's better to be conscious of it, in order to reduce it at most. That's exactly the same with violence.

Most of the non-hierarchical structures are hierarchical, but the persons or groups that dominate them won't even recognize it.

@aral

@im @aral hierarchies are okay: if they are conscious, and temporary: for example until the end of a task, or enough people are autonomous to work without the hierarchy.

@aral @im What would that look like (a successful non-hierarchical structure)? There's never been such a thing in the history of humanity or nature itself.

What you and so many have a problem with is corruption and greed - as do I. But there will always be those more successful or more powerful than others. It's always been that way, regardless of structure (structure IS hierarchical).

Watching nature in any context shows this very clearly.

@joshhumble @im The facts beg to differ (en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_). And many of the historic ones could have gone on for longer had they not been violently destroyed by hierarchies.

Not to mention every relationship (unless you feel, e.g., that the man is the boss in a heterosexual relationship), small agrarian communities, etc.

What couldn’t happen in the past is that we couldn’t scale non-hierarchical communication and organisation. Modern tech, designed right, would allow us to do that.

@aral @im ALL societies must have a structure, and the structure IS hierarchy. We can "try" the unnatural experiment of non-hierarchy, until hierarchy naturally arises from within. Trying to rid ourselves of this is like striving for ultimate purity or sterilization. It doesn't last and it doesn't work.

The best thing we can do is strive for as fair, altruistic hierarchy as we can, hence capitalism, and encouragement of using it with virtue. So yes, the facts show hierarchy will always exist.

@aral @im This INSANE push to rid ourselves of the most successful structure we've had that's allowed SO much innovation and brought virtually ALL of the world to a better place in favor of oppressive structures like socialism and communism is absurd. The latter are authoritarian hierarchies, and history proves this. Stop trying to tear down capitalism, and instead, be a part of the socially responsible capitalist movements.

@aral @im Hey, every fact shows this. I greatly dislike greed and corruption, which happens in all systems. I just prefer the more free option to succeed and help others without authoritarian governments oppressing us all. People come to the U.S. and other more capitalist societies from communist nations to escape tyranny. They're appalled by those who've never experienced real tyranny who want to tear down free markets because they're not perfect.

@joshhumble Every facts show that history never ends.

Because domination is always challenged. The Bourgeoisie will be replaced. Eventually.

@aral

@im @aral The tendency for others to dominate will always be. Structure of some kind will always exist - it's just about what structure is best for us all. I believe we've found it. Now, it's just about how to make it work optimally for everyone. Even in the most egalitarian or anarchist societies, people will eventually form structures, hierarchies. Balanced structures also guide and hold societies together.

@joshhumble @aral @im There are many people who didn't come from communist nations to the U.S. Nevertheless, the U.S. came to them. How can they escape now?
@joshhumble @aral @im

"I'm not sure what you're referring to?" -

I'm refering to e.g. 17 million east germans who in 1990 got treated into a neoliberal race for being the most competitive, flexible and free numbers in the global economy.

Since than we have substituted the tyranny of the communism here by the tyranny of the market. None is better. Especially since "the market" has it's own planning authorities and institutions. They are better hidden and worse to bypass than the former party planners.

@torsten_torsten @aral @im I can't speak of that situation, as I don't know all the details. ​What about the current system is oppressive? Do consumers have more freedom to choose who they buy from? Do business startups have more opportunity to establish themselves and grow? Capitalism implemented in the U.S. is different from the same implemented elsewhere. We do have our problems with crony capitalism here. Greed & corruption will diminsh or destroy any system.

@joshhumble @aral @im Thanks, Josh for admitting to not know all the details of the situation here. That's quite something as pro-free market people from the west usually tell me (and people around here) how free everything has become since 1989.
>​What about the current system is oppressive?
Foremost the system it's oppressive towards nature and people on the "lower ranks" of society and towards people trying to make a living with no support from unions or lobby organisations. So I say the current system helps the upper 10% to oppress the lower 90%.

>Do consumers have more freedom to choose who they buy from? This depends totally if you are in the higher or the lower ranks of society. And socio-economic mobility is rather low in many capitalist countries. You're chances to work your way up are damn small if not zero, when you are down. The dishwasher who became a millionaire is a nice fairytail to motivate people to sell their working power for very low prices.

@torsten_torsten @aral @im I appreciate your thoughts. I can only speak of my experiences in the U.S. & the innovation we've all benefitted from; however, what works for us - and some societies - may not work as well in other societies. Our attempt at exporting democracy also hasn't worked well at times. The concept of both capitalism and democracy is only part of an equation. How much regulation is there (too much or too little), unions and mobilitly (as you mention), etc.

@aral @im blood + a Icelandic election process(the second part is always blocked)

@aral @spacekookie

You should think about kings, Manager, CEOs, presidents
Why do they exists? Are they important? Are the most of us good at management? Did they become so powerful from yesterday over today?

Dont forget that your live is a bubble. You cant imagine all the different personalities that exist, impossible.
The world as it is and was never perfect but changing everything to your correct world is utopia, there are meaningful reason why it is as it is.

@aral @spacekookie @redPirrote

Try to change the direction but not the whole thing, you have to loose.

Today in the 21 we have the IT. Make impact spread your ideas with work, donations and influence. Begin with small steps and make compromises. Better small changes than nothing

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