(1/2) #Israel's Defense Minister #Gallant: "We are fighting human #animals and we act accordingly."
President #Herzog: "It is an entire nation out there that is responsible. It's not true this rhetoric about civilians not aware, not involved. It's absolutely not true."
Minister of Heritage #Eliyahu:
"North Gaza is more beautiful than ever. Blowing up and flattening everything is amazing. Once we are finished, we will hand over the lands of #Gaza to the fighting soldiers and settlers"
(2/2) These are not random fanatics showing their rage on the streets.
These are government officials of #Israel, barely disguising their announcements of #WarCrimes, and #CrimesAgainstHumanity.
Stop finding excuses. Stop defending this.
@katzenberger Who is excusing the far-right parties Likud and Otzma Yehudit?
Their two parties are far-right, and being far-right is disgusting.
Yes, these are part of the government.
The government that tens of thousands of Israelis had been protesting against continuously for months before Hamas committed their mass-murder on Oct 7th.
@ArneBab @katzenberger next step you'll say it was Palestinians that elected that government that Israelis are protesting against.
@alper why should I say that?
That would make even less sense than the toots I commented on.
@katzenberger
@ArneBab @katzenberger they sure are not elected by Palestinians. So yes, some do protest and yet many give the power to and support the government.
@alper you did not answer my question. @katzenberger
@alper and I got blocked, because I pointed out that sandwiching a decontextualized quote of the president between two far-right quotes is a disinformation tactic aimed at holding Israelis in general responsible for the words of the far-right minority.
If you want people to listen,
*do not* resort to such disinformation tactics.
I’ll repeat what I said there: being far right is disgusting. Saying this is not an excuse for being far right.
@ArneBab @katzenberger I agree. I think the problem you're not noticing is the symmetry. My response was about that. Maybe not clear enough but being blocked vs getting murdered for something someone else did is another symmetry.
@alper I notice symmetries and asymmetries.
I notice the symmetry of words between the far-right minority in the israeli government and Hamas.
I notice that the original toot tries to construct a false symmetry of words between the general Israeli government and Hamas by using disinformation tactics.
I notice the asymmetry in action: Hamas offense targets civilians and Hamas defense uses civilians as shield while Israeli attacks target Hamas and defense protects civilians. 1/2
@alper And I notice a symmetry broken since Oct 7th:
Israel had the means, but not the will to kill all civilians in Gaza.
Hamas had the will, but not the means to kill all civilians in Israel.
This was broken: Hamas showed that they are acquiring the means.
And there is no symmetry in action:
Hamas intentionally targets civilians.
Israel targets Hamas.
Hamas creates situations where targeting Hamas also hits civilians, but that does not mean that Israel targets civilians.
@alper If this seems strange, then think about what would have happened in the past four weeks if Israel had the intention to kill all civilians in Gaza.
They could have killed almost all civilians in Gaza. 4 weeks are enough time that almost no one would have survived.
But they did not.
Do you still see a symmetry?
@katzenberger
@ArneBab
I do not fucking believe you're minimising the genocidal rhetoric AND ACTIONS of the Israeli govt at this time, with "well if they wanted to kill *all* of them, they would have."
Take a look at yourself.
@alper @katzenberger
@priryo what do you think how many Israelis would be dead after 4 weeks if Hamas had the weapons Israel has?
That is the question you must ask if you claim that there is symmetry.
How many civilians would die if all Hamas fighters would lay down their weapons today and surrender to IDF?
How many civilians would die if all IDF fighters would lay down their weapons today and surrender to Hamas?
@alper @katzenberger
@ArneBab @priryo @alper @katzenberger So your defense of Israel is that it is acting nominally better than the worst possible example of a barbaric cabal of deranged, brain-addled religious fundamentalist genocidal maniacs would given the same military capability?
Just doesn’t feel like much of a defense to me.
@aral I am saying that the claim that was raised of there being symmetry between Hamas and the Israeli government is wrong.
The facts have to be correct, otherwise any moral reasoning is flawed from the start.
This claimed symmetry is a false claim of facts.
And spreading disinformation is never right, regardless of how much you think that you’re on the right side.
@priryo@linernotes.club @alper @katzenberger
@ArneBab @alper @katzenberger Yeah, there’s no symmetry. One is a terrorist group. The other is a state acting like a terrorist group.
Also gree on the last bit. Wish someone would let the IDF and Israeli government know too.
@aral That’s false — and I thought that should be obvious: If the Israeli government with all its arms were to act like a terrorist group, almost no one in Gaza would be alive today.
They don’t.
The Israeli government around Netanyahu did a lot of bad things in the past years, but they do not act like a terrorist group. And the state of Israel does not either.
And don’t worry: you can be sure that every publicly known Jew has been told your line many times.
@alper @katzenberger
@ArneBab Ah, do they have to reach 10,000 dead civilians before it becomes state terrorism? Or is it 10,000 dead children? Silly me, I always forget which it is.
@aral you know you’re pulling emotionalizing rhetoric here instead of giving arguments.
People die because Hamas abuses them as shields. Hamas intentionally built military infrastructure below civilian infrastructure and they prevent civilians from evacuating.
Though if you know a way how Israel can prevent another mass-murder like Oct 7 without attacking Hamas’ infrastructure, please give it.
No one sane (this excludes the far-right and Hamas) wants civilians to die.
@aral The goal of terrorism is terrorizing the civilians. That’s not the goal of the attacks (at least for those outside the far-right minority parties).
The goal of the of the attacks is destroying Hamas. That’s not the goal of a terrorist.
And yes, this is now a defense of the attacks: I know no good way to stop Hamas from attacking again and again.
The mass-murder on Oct 7 showed that the hope that Hamas would become less extreme over time was a false hope.
@alper @katzenberger
@aral I used to think “Hamas wouldn’t run large attacks. That would be the worst that could happen to the Palestinians.”
In the past few days I then saw a Hamas speaker tell the press (paraphrased from memory): “it’s not our job to build bomb shelters. That’s the job of the UN.”
They don’t care about the fate of Palestinians.
And that’s horrifying. How to deal with that?
@alper @katzenberger
@ArneBab @aral @katzenberger
Again, Netenyahu PREFERS Hamas as the counterpart because he doesn't want to talk. If he talks that leads to a two state solution as the whole world has been yelling at Israel for decades. That plan has been on the table since the Mandate and Israel (as an insurgency blowing up trains etc back then) has been against it. Propping up genocidal maniacs as the other side has been the strategy all along. This is Israel's choice and they have been choosing it by electing the same (and even more far-right) politicians consistently.
This is not a new method. See link below, can't write again.
https://sfba.social/@alper/111364304486427679
@alper How often did leaders of Palestinians decline a two-state solution when offered one by Israel?
@ArneBab @aral @katzenberger how often did Israel reject 2 state solutions the US, UN and the rest of the world has been suggesting? I can play that game too.
@ArneBab @aral @katzenberger btw I hate giving wikipedia links but here we are for a simple summary.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jewish_insurgency_in_Mandatory_Palestine
@alper I like Wikipedia links.
That’s a source which gives many different viewpoints as long as they are sourced.
This one leads to this: "As all the League of Nations mandates were to be taken over by the new United Nations … Hours after the end of the Mandate, contingents of the armies of four surrounding Arab states entered Palestine, setting off the 1948 Arab–Israeli War."
@aral @katzenberger
@ArneBab @aral @katzenberger
It is not like the world, including many Israelis is not seeing what has been going on for a long time.
https://responsiblestatecraft.org/benjamin-netanyahu-israel/
@alper Israel offered two state solutions to the Palestinians. That’s different from someone outside offering something the Palestinians may not follow up on.
@ArneBab @aral @katzenberger let me think where I remember this argument from. Hmmm. "If our ancestors wanted to make a genocide there wouldn't be a single Armenian left, they are still some so you see?!" yeah, that's it. Heard it a million times.
@aral @ArneBab @katzenberger btw the symmetry I was implying there was that he kept Hamas as a homogeneous entity and Israel as the side with bad apples. There is so much far right inside both the government/state and the military. You're taking what Israel "says" to the world and not does on the ground as the basis of Israeli position. You say far right doesn't represent and forget that Hamas is the far right of Palestine and has been propped up by Israel specifically because of their genocidal rhetoric which helps the world side by Israel. When there is Hamas on the other side the world won't push Israel to the table and this has been netenyahu's strategy for decades.