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Mozilla’s now director of public policy once asked me, with a straight face, why I was giving them a hard time and holding Mozilla to a higher standard: “we’re just another Silicon Valley tech company.”

But that’s not what you tell people publicly, is it, Mozilla?

Still, it’s time y’all got this.

Mozilla is a half-billion-dollar for-profit corporation – whose CEO makes >$3M/yr – that has a foundation do its PR.

howtogeek.com/760425/firefox-n

Mozilla isn’t an ally. Mozilla is Big Tech. Mozilla is Big Web.

@aral “Firefox Suggest acts as a trustworthy guide to the better web, surfacing relevant information and sites to help people accomplish their goals.”
That's proof that there's literally no difference between #Mozilla and any other #SiliconValley capitalists / privacy whitewashers, etc.

@aral ı wonder what browser you are using. ı also wonder why mastodon doesn't have a non-js version (ı'm not a fan of firefox nor chromium nor konqueror either)

@onat @aral

There _is_ a non-javascript frontend for mastodon (and similar) - brutaldon. (brutaldon.org) (and yes, I'm using it right now.)

@Truck @onat Wow, so unless you’re running your own instance, you’re browsing Mastodon on someone else’s machine. I really don’t understand why folks have such a strong reaction to actually running stuff on their own computers using JavaScript. (But also don’t want to spend the rest of the afternoon discussing it so *leaves*) :)

@aral @onat I suppose I don't really have that much of an issue with that considering that if you aren't running Mastodon locally, you're putting your data on someone else's machine... sending login credentials to another machine ... etc.

That host ( brutaldon.org ) is currently hosted by @djsundog .

I don't believe it is hard to host locally - so that's an option. It is 'small web' in my opinion (:

@Truck @onat @aral I love the characterization of a no JS web interface as a "Brutalist web interface".

We should adopt this analogy into our language immediately.

@aral @onat @Truck @urusan @aexiruch is there a database of sites that follow this design because I love it!

@blindscribe @aral @onat @urusan

Not that I know of... may be something to start a list _OF_ (:

but do let us know (the devs) how it works for folks who are "less sighted."

(ok I'm not ... active on the dev list but I am ... watching it. And. At some point I need to fix a bug or two (: )

@onat @aral I use #tut (github.com/RasmusLindroth/tut) in the terminal. If text-mostly is your brand of coffee, you might enjoy this...

@kf ı sometimes use tootstream github.com/magicalraccoon/toot ı just wanted to make a point about "everything sucks" attitude

@valerauko

Tor browser maybe ?

There is a "small" internet though, using another protocol and based on text only: gemini (which stems from gopher). You can try it out from putty.

@aral

@aral Yes, Mozilla's CEO is also not a great role model and not every decision for e.g. Firefox was perfect. It might be Big Tech and not I can see why you wouldn't call them ally. But to me Mozilla (or their products) seem not as bad as GAFAM (or their products). I'm reluctant to call Mozilla an enemy among the ranks of evilness as other Big Tech.

Do you think some differentiated judgement does make sense or really they don't deserve getting cut any slack?

@floppy If anything they’re worse: they have everyone believing they’re a not-for-profit fighting for human rights etc., when that’s just PR and they’re just another Silicon Valley Big Tech company.

@aral @floppy you have accused Firefox of many things, like to uphold surveillance capitalism and to be a fraud. What are the things you are backing yourself on.

@aral Yesterday I was posting this so your message left me confused and then I’ve read this note from someone who apparently has done more research

@aral Mozilla is the best we have right now, even if it's not perfect. All the hate it gets does not create better products, it just pushes people to Chrome and it's clones.

@andreipetcu It’s definitely not the “best we have right now.” That’s probably GNOME Web in terms of ethics. Sadly, it’s the “best we have under the Silicon Valley model.”

And there, again, folks should use it without being used by it by using Librewolf instead.

What we need is a to fund an organisation from public funds, to create a browser for the public good.

I know, how communist of me ;)

@aral What browser would you recommend then please?

@flavio Pragmatically? Librewolf. Or, if you can live with its limitations, GNOME Web.

@aral Aral, my friend, I tried to use Gnome Web, hoping it would be a Safari-like trip, but it wasn't hahaha Indeed I'm still looking for a new webbrowser as Firefox keeps crashing on my Fedora note. I greet any tip or advice (:

@flavio I wish I had some for you. It’s slim pickings out there.

@aral This is a complicated issue , because mozilla efforts for foss are evident, but it should be realised that privacy cannot be copromise even if the company is unable to make profit without going big tech way , so they needs to overcome this problem. Still we should not forget the tor browser the best browser for privacy and security

@aral is there even an option left? Like there is basicly firefox and then chrome forks, right?

What's there to do for a lazy mildly caring person?

@JonossaSeuraava Yeah, it’s not looking good.

Last I looked Librewolf was doing a good job of remaining current and stripping out Mozilla’s bullshit from their fork of Firefox: librewolf-community.gitlab.io/

Not a long term solution. Ideally we’d fund an independent not for profit org with EU taxpayer money to build an independent browser for the common good.

@aral @JonossaSeuraava If JS is not needed (and I know some people in this thread will hate me for this, but usually it's not needed), then the situation isn't so bad. Netsurf is already pretty usable, @alcinnz has built some cool browsers from scratch, etc.

So currently the way it looks to me is: requiring Chrome features is very similar to requiring Flash, or some other proprietary plugin.

@aral @JonossaSeuraava @alcinnz Like, the only way to make your content portable across browser implementations is to actually make it portable. Use the lowest common denominator tech.

If you aren't building an App TM, this is not difficult. Even plain HTML can be very readable.

@csepp I tried netsurf, but it doesn't appear like it is functional for most webpages. It works for wikipedia though.

@vega In my experience, it works for everything that works without JS, which includes quite a few sites. They are working on supporting JS, which is IMHO a pointless waste of time. They'll never finish it and it's time they should be spending on accessibility and making the UX not be trash. But at its core it does work.

@vega @csepp Just tried Netsurf on Linux Mint 20.1, to see if the websites I manage are usable; but it crashes with an assertion error when loading my page.
Looks like the bug from bugs.debian.org/cgi-bin/bugrep .

So if anyone here wants to make Netsurf available to a broader audience, I guess fixing the version that's provided with current Ubuntu LTS could be quite effective.

@Dashtop I don't really mind slowness. I also doubt that plain HTML would be slow to render, but Netsurf supports a lot of CSS features too. Unless you have infinite resources like the Chrome team and can implement most of the rendering on the GPU side, supporting all of that will be slow.
But that complexity and reduction in portability is not worth it IMHO.

@JonossaSeuraava @aral When "lazy" is in the equation not really a lot. Escaping control and targeted advertising usually need a little effort, searching, tweaking etc.
I shouldn't be like this but...it is unfortunately.

@vgnpwr Links2 is the best web browser. It doesn't support CSS, Javscript and all that nonsense. @aral

@maxi @aral

Well, but this makes some sites unable to use. I also block JavaScript, but I need to allow some scripts to use e. g. my banks Website. You always need to compromise...

@vgnpwr @aral @maxi

I get the minimalism and the need to strip out all the bullshit, but I would never use a browser without #CSS.

Websites are becoming so astoundingly gorgeous.

@tommi Counterpoint: Web elements default styling is simply wrong.

On far too mamy sites, I invoke Reader Mode, read via Pocket, or go to a console-mode browser (usually w3m).

Design can be good, but far too often isn't. Most often to me, web design isn't the solution, web design is the problem.

@vgnpwr @aral @maxi

@aral would one conclude that is then just netscape 2.0? netscape 1.0, the company, was also great at the pr hustle.

@aral Lol the fact that they're "just another silicon valley company" is all I need to know.

@aral Too bad there are no good alternatives. We've messed up miserably and I'm afraid it's too late to fix the problem now 😢 I'd love to be proven wrong though! (yes, I'm looking at you EU)

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